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Killed if Ukrainian, Died if Palestinian
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this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
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Israelis are the only violent side refusing any semblance of peace. The West Bank is irrefutable evidence of this.
There is no "also".
This is a hard line to tow, this is not a conflict with a 'good guy'.
The Hamas charter that they were founded on is publicly accessible, anyone can read it. It directly calls for Jihad as the only answer, and directly say that negotiation is not an option. There is also a line referencing that judgement will not come until the Jews are killed. Israel is doing bad things but don't let that lead you to the conclusion that Hamas is okay. It's really rough.
None of the single violent resistances against apartheid and oppression ever had a "good guy".
If you believe all those people that were willing to risk their lives to stand up against oppression in the past were super nice and educated about the whole situation you're in for a big treat.
The IRA and the ANC are not the nice guys you think they were which only targeted military and politicians. And don't google what the Haitians did during their rebellion against slavery.
Hamas is very much on the lower end of civilian casualty rates for a resistance group.
It's hard line to tow, but if you are going to say they're open to peace, you got to stick to it.
No one is interested in bringing any of this into the conversation.
This is where I have a problem, you're framing 'lower end of civilian casualty' as a good statistic to look at and a sign that one side is somehow 'noble'. People are trying really hard to frame it as a battle of good vs evil, where in reality it's just a battle of evil vs evil, but one side is dramatically less effective and has less resources. The wikipedia article on suicide bombings Hamas has claimed credit for isn't small and that's just covering one type of terrorism.
It's horrible for the Palestinian civilians, but Hamas has built their entire government on the idea of perpetual war and specifically not negotiating a solution. I hope I'm wrong, but I personally don't see a peaceful solution here where both sides are still around.
What does this even mean? They have been open to peace and tried to negotiate peacefully far before October 7.
Israel keeps breaking all its deals which leaves violent resistance as the only option they have left for peace.
You've watched a few too many Disney movies where "the good guy "keep getting punched in the face and never hit anyone that oppose them because 'they're above that and that would make them just as evil as the other guy!".
Yes intentionally avoiding killing many civilians and especially children is objectively better than indiscriminately massacring every single child you can find like israel does and like many other resistance groups have done in the past.
A reminder that in total EIGHT children under 10 died on october 7. israel kills more than that every single day.
People are so far brainwashed that if they hear "khamas evil evil evil" enough times they magically believe that they are actually worse than israel which is literally trying to wipe out every single Palestinian from the face of the earth and are dreaming of having the 2/3 civilian casualty rate Hamas has
Hamas's government is built upon israel never accepting any peaceful deal or keeping their promises, something which israel has proven many times over the past 75 years.
You'd be out there saying that the Jews should have just negotiated with Adolf Hitler instead of fighting back as if that's even an option.
You're saying they want peace then describing them as a violent resistance. Those don't match up.
They're unapologetically and unashamedly a terrorist organization and describe themselves as such. You're the only one confused. They publicly claim responsibility for acts of terror like the below:
Hamas Suicide Bombings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#:~:text=A%202007%20study%20of%20Palestinian,PFLP)%20and%202.7%25%20by%20other%20and%202.7%25%20by%20other)
Partially correct, but misleading, the charter that Hamas was founded on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter
Hamas' government was built on a requirement for violent jihad and fantasizing about the death of all jews (it's specifically in the charter). The government charter specifically speaks against negotiating for peace. Notable extra callouts railing against equal rights for women, codifying them as exclusively 'homemakers' and 'child rearers'. A whole special section just to state that womens suffrage was something the west made up just to make them specifically look bad.
Your next comment should be something along the lines of "I give up on this, you're obviously not listening to this stuff I made up". Make sure to include a segue with an analogy comparing it to something else though.
Yeah the Allies fought against Hitler with violence because they wanted to kill all Germans and never achieve peace.
And the ANC too they didn't want peace they just wanted genocide!
Childish arguments.
There's the segue that no one cares about that I mentioned in my last reply.
And, there's the 'I give up and go home' statement I predicted in the last reply too. It was expected after any sources are presented.
Maybe post something relevant next time and learn about history before you write a 5 pages long nothing burger.
Oh look everybody we got a repeat from this one of giving up and going home once it's pointed out that they've offered nothing!
Still not seeing any comments on the sources. How you feel about the hamas charter? Was women's suffrage where it all went wrong? Openly admitting to suicide bombings and other acts of terror and being proud of being a terrorist organization? Is that what the good guys do?
This isn't me, this is coming direct from your 'good guys'.
There is an also, because they must, too, reject violence. The Israelis could have taken to the streets enraged as their leader failed to act on the information given to him about the Oct 7 attack. He chose violence instead, and those people, forgetting their previous emotions of hatred toward their leader, sided with their government. They chose violence. Do you see how individuals and their consent creates a vicious cycle?
Only israel must reject violence as the other side has always been open to peace.
Palestinians would not resort to violence if there was any other option.
Hamas is made up of Palestinians. It may seem strange, but those who were forced to live in what was bragged as an "open air prison" also resorted to violence on Oct 7.
The purpose of my words is not who is at fault. I am saying that for humanity to have peace they have to choose it every time. If people ever want to be free of war, warfare must become taboo. That won't happen, and the warmonger at the head of Israel will probably get most of what he wants. But that is what it will take if anyone ever truly wants world peace. The People must refuse to fight.
This is some "the bullied kid fights back so both are at fault" level shit. Victim blaming level maximum.
Palestinians in the West Bank don't fight back and they still get genocided by israel.
I will repeat; only one side is at fault and it is israel.
Yeah just ignore the literal hundreds of years of conflict between israelites and Palestinians. And thr fact the Palestinians elected Hamas. Its eyes for eyes all around
No one is ever rejecting violence for any reason. And you're immoral for demanding it.
Think about it. If you want world peace people have to go for it every day. I am not demanding shit. Everyone can war until the sun explodes if they wish. You don't have to like it. But if humanity wants peace thry have to choose it.
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, dream on, no one is ever going to give up the conflicts, values and issues that matter to them just because you get the icks from something that is ultimately not your business.
See? Humanity chooses violence even when it is not necessary. You mock and laugh yet offer no substance. You want to be angry at this statement because you know that if our governments couldn't get us to fight each other there would be no war. Go ahead, keep being strung along by your emotions while the world booms "our religions are that of peace!" while surrounded on all sides by warfare and exploitation. You're mad because I am telling you the truth. And you don't want to accept that all of man's struggles can become trivialities if we truly love one another. Stay mad tho.
Yeah, they do, because it works and because it is the more just option in some instances.
I, for example, am on .cafe allowing my account to be downvoted by rape apologists who are arguing rapists have an absolute right to participate in the community regardless of what they do and the fact that their actions put the community in danger. I oppose rape on principle and think rapists ought to be jailed for life. You think shit Lemmy users are going to listen? No, and the downvotes prove it. But will it affect or change anything? Or change their minds? Absolutely not. Because humanity is inherently evil and violent, and nothing you and I say or do will change that.
You can't make violent evil people change their minds, and you can never stop violence just as I can never stop enablers from keeping rapists in the community.
Deontological morality like the kind you and I apply to such situations therefore doesn't work, and we both need to rethink our approach. You want to make the world a better place? Stop focusing on changing the zoo animals and just feed and cage them, where they belong.