183
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
183 points (100.0% liked)
Asklemmy
43898 readers
878 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Using GitHub is a skill of it's own, and requires knowledge of coding practices. It's hugely confronting to someone without coding experience
I code but I found it to have quite a learning curve.
Maybe the first step is to develop a "how to use git for improving documentation on a FOSS project" lol
Yes, absolutely but github (which is only an example, mind you) has a lot of consumer friendly accomodations like github gui and cli.
You can edit stuff directly in someone elses repo (or so it seems) in the web browser. I know you have to do a branch and a pull request but thats something that can be worked on.
https://xkcd.com/2501/
Thanks for making my point. :)
Woooooooooooosh
Wow. Great addition. Have a nice day.
The "woosh" is because we're trying to point out that the average person probably doesn't know how to use git cli and make coding documentation.
I knew that. I‘m saying just because the average person doesnt use it does not mean nobody uses it.
... did you open the comic?
Yes, I did. The fact that people think their UI is already easy enough is a large part of the problem. Thats why we need easier ways of contributing.
Somebody told you that github was hard, and you said "but look at all these tools that make github super easy to use." You are the people in the comic. Github is not easy for the average person to use. Github CLI is especially off-putting.
Since you're trying to build bridges with this post, I just want you to know that everything you mentioned in this comment is far beyond a non-programmer and sounds totally incomprehensible. It's jargon soup. I don't say this to dunk on you or anything, I just wanted to let you know how high your own skill level is, because it can be easy to forget sometimes. People without those skills won't be able to follow this kind of explanation.
I'm interested in where the limits to expectations lie here. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this next part but I do worry I may come off that way but I'm trying to figure out the boundaries of what a "reasonable" expectation is so I can make tasks like this easier for my own team (completely unrelated to this project but it's essentially the same problem).
Is it not reasonable to expect people to type into a search engine something like "GitHub help" and then poke around in the links that come up?
.... Well I'll be damned, I tried my own method before commenting, and the first link that comes up is a red herring, how obnoxious. I was hoping it'd be a link to the docs, not GitHub support. I guess I just answered my own question: no that is not reasonable.
As a technical user, I am still at a loss for how to help a non-technical user in an algorithmic way that will work for most non-technical users x.x guess I'll be thinking about this problem some more lol
(I guess I'm rambling but I'm gonna post this anyways in case anyone wants to chatter about it with me)
It's super hard to know this and there won't be a consistent answer because everyone is different. You have to meet people where they are.
I think you did answer your own question on this one. I'll also say that as a somewhat technical user but still not a heavily technical user like some people here, GitHub is a really baffling website. It's hard to even figure out how to download something from it. I would strongly encourage anyone who wants to reach non-technical users to avoid GitHub. It's made for programmers and it doesn't make sense to anyone else without training.
That's fair. Part of my job is converting non-technical users into technical users by teaching them things like problem solving approaches that are supposed to help them teach themselves how to learn whatever they need to actually do their job. I don't teach them what to do, I teach them how to learn what to do.
I agree that you gotta meet people where they're at, but I try to teach them how to poke around any code repo site, like GitHub or gitlab, so they can use it. Usually I point them to the docs and start by pointing out my favorite parts so that they have somewhere to kind of start by themselves, but it is a skill set that can be practice, or at least I am convinced it is.
I'm not very good at this part of my job, but also, no one is, so it's not a bad thing, I just want to do better. I guess I never thought of it from a truly non-technical and not wanting to be technical perspective before. This could be solved by a secondary interface designed specifically for this kind of user. It would not allow code download or interaction, but it would allow for issue logging. I might put this idea in my ever growing project list because it sounds like it would be a useful product...
Thanks for the heads up. Yes, I‘m indeed trying to help and apparently some people really want me to stop but I wont. I‘m happy a few actually appreciate it.
The jargon soup is not intentional, I was trying to head off a couple smartypants that will tell me that editing a repository in the browser actually just makes a branch.
You can’t do it right anyway. If you facilitate change, people will crucify you. So I just take hate and dont care at all.
That was exactly my point with the linked xkcd too. Not sure how they interpreted that as being in support of their post.
what planet are you living on?
You can be as condescending as you like. Still, the github cli is easier than using git on the normal console afaik.
You‘re making the same mistake the devs are making. You think because you (or anyone) cant be bothered to use a cli, it doesnt help anyone to have it and its not an accomodation.
But it is.
I learned a CLI, I have a degree in computer science, people hate CLIs and are terrified of them and instantly run away from your product the second they read that a CLI feature exists.
I get that you have experience and are probably an expert in a lot of things but this „everything is this“ and „everyone is that“ thinking doesnt help.
The github cli is better to use than normal git and the gui works even better. It still needs work though, that I fully agree on.
Name an occasion where you heard a non-techy user say 'man, this app is too complicated, I wish I had a CLI to use instead!" nobody who can't code goes anywhere near a CLI, except maybe to copy+paste solutions to common linux problems and install scripts, and even then, they're generally confused and scared.
I know generalizations are bad, but this type of user literally does not exist. you can't claim to be making user-friendly software while imagining users instead of talking to them. Try introducing a muggle friend to linux some time. They never actually say the "it's so much easier!" thing Linux developers imagine they're going to say.