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"Both parties are the same!"
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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There's nuance. Obviously, vote for the liberal over the fascist, it's not even close. However, the fascists are absolutely represented in government, while there's no leftist candidates to speak of. Leftists have to plug their nose and vote liberal, while fascists gleefully vote republican.
Voting is entirely for loss prevention, because ultimately it absolutely impacts minority groups and people who stand to lose a great deal by a republican victory. However, leftists will not be able to move America to the left by voting.
That's why grassroots movements and building up of parallel structures are so important for leftism, it cannot work within the confines of a 2 party Capitalist state, and must be built from the bottom up.
You said there’s nuance but then went on to explain that there isn’t nuance and the only reasonable vote is for Biden. And you’re not wrong. There are a lot of folks pretending to be on the left acting like there’s a whole lot of nuance here, and that voting for someone other than Biden, or not voting at all, is an acceptable option.
None of this precludes advocating for your positions or doing other praxis, but when it comes to voting the answer is clear
There's nuance, because leftists saying voting isn't going to change anything meaningfully as far as moving towards the left is still true.
That is true, but not voting or casting a protest vote right now ensures fascism, under which there will be literally no choice at all.
At least under a democracy there are chances to improve things, like replacing FPTP with a better voting system that will actually allow the left a seat at the table. That’s already happening in some places and there’s a movement (supported by democrats and vehemently opposed by republicans) to enact alternative voting methods.
Unfortunately there’s been so much apathy for decades that the fascists have got their foot solidly in the door. There was nuance years ago, but we squandered it. There’s little point debating left vs liberal when fascism has taken hold. That must be stopped first.
There’s no such thing as moral neutrality in this environment, and as much as it sucks, not voting against fascism is the same as voting for fascism.
Hence my original point, leftists must vote for liberals, even if it isn't ever going to improve the system, and must work themselves to build up leftist structures without hoping for help from liberals. If they don't vote, then fascists take power, and leftists lose the chance to build leftist structures at all.
I do think you're too hopeful that a 2 party Capitalist state designed to change as little as possible would meaningfully improve from within, rather than under pressure from without, but it would be great if you were right about that.
I’m not that hopeful that the left can change the system from within, to be honest, I’m just certain it’s too late to think about that because under fascist rule, not only will things not improve, but many of us will face genocide.
The time for leftist change was 20 years ago, or with any luck, 8 or so years from now after the fascist threat has been quashed. Right now we have to think about unifying like it’s 1932.
Only thing I disagree with is the idea that leftist change was more possible 20 years ago, Capitalism's instability and inherent structural flaws only make themselves more apparent and severe as time goes on, and with that comes potential for change. The left is larger than ever before, and is constantly growing.
Where? And who in the DNC supports this?
Here.
And here’s one resource to support it. There are many others, both local and national.
eta: I’m on mobile so searching and linking is hard, but you can find people running for office who support these efforts by googling the office (senator, mayor, or whatever) and ‘free vote initiative’ or some synonyms. There are some (mostly local) republicans, substantially more democrats, and a huge majority of 3rd party candidates for obvious reasons).
I strongly recommend bringing it up with your representatives. 3rd party and democrats have been teaming up for this, and republicans have been fighting it because FPTP greatly benefits them and they know it.
So is the illusion of being able to shift the Overton window in any way more important than saving your supporters from genocide?
Reread the original comment. It's absolutely important to vote as loss prevention, but you're never going to get meaningful systemic change towards the left via voting.
Vote to protect, actually make grassroots movements like unionizing and organizing to move to the left.
I just don't know why the Onus is never on Joe Biden himself. Why is it that we feel like he doesn't have to earn any votes at all?
"Am I so out of touch? No, it's the voters who are wrong."
No, it's more like "LOL you have to vote for me, or the fascist will win". Democrats love opponents like Trump, because he helps them fundraise like crazy.
It also means they don't have to do shit but be second worst to a literal fascist. And it's disgusting how comfortable they are in such a position.
The onus isn't on him because voting for him is for our benefit, not his.
Voting for someone other than Biden or not voting is an absolutely acceptable option, and I’m not pretending to be a leftist when I do so. I have Ranked Choice Voting in my state, but even if I didn’t, I would vote for who I most want in office because I have no faith in either democrats or republicans to fix the most important issues currently plaguing 99% of the people. Vilifying people for voting third party — when third parties are currently the only viable presidential and congressional solution apart from a violent revolution — is misguided.
Democrats are not your friends; you deserve better.
Non voters vote too. They vote for 'I'll have what she's having.' then they complain when she chooses shit.
We're not voting for friends.
Leftist 3rd parties split votes between leftists and the more conservative liberals (who are the vast majority), increasing the chance of a Republican victory. I fully support right-wing people voting Libertarian though :)
With the politics of the U.S. population, and violent revolution would likely be fascist.
This is very well written and well said. If we want change that doesn't come from working within the Democrats, we have to build our own robust party across all 50 states, drawing on strong local support. No one outside of the two parties is currently trying to do this, which speaks volumes about the Green and Libertarian Parties.
Leftists really have no choice other than to vote Democrat. We have to protect people who would be targeted by Republicans. We fundamentally go against left wing values if we don't. I cannot call myself liberal or leftist or wherever in-between if I sit out an election where innocent people will suffer if one of the candidates wins.
I like how you've phrased this -- voting for Biden isn't because you necessarily like his policies or viewpoints, but because you want to protect people from Trump and the Republicans. I'd love if we didn't have to worry about fascists, but we don't have that luxury. As long as they're a hair's breadth away from power, we pick the option that opposes them.
Exactly. There's one terminally online radlib here that I blocked because they were just shit-slinging for daring to suggest both voting Biden and unionizing, organizing, protesting, etc. As a leftist, we must work from without the Democratic party.
Speaking purely from a leftist perspective, I'm actually of the opinion that Anarchist principles of building up parallel structures actually may be more applicable to the American political climate, even if you're more of a Council Communist, Libertarian Socialist, Marxist-Leninist, etc. The US is seeing rising Unionization, and dramatic impacts from it, so I think Syndicalism actually has some revolutionary potential, unlike waiting for a Vanguard Party a la MLism.
Just my 2 cents.
If I was a fascist, I'd vote Dem - fascism just gets more traction with liberals in the Waffle House, and Dems are utterly ineffective at actually doing anything to stop fascism anyway. It was Trump whipping the fascists into a froth while a lib was in the Waffle House that brought antifa into the streets - not Trump actually humiliating himself on a daily basis in the Offal Office.
Fascists just gets more from a Dem regime - the Dems are doing a fine job strengthening fascist institutions. If Pig City was being constructed under Trump, the resistance to it would be ten times stronger.
None of this means you are wrong, of course (you're not) - but if voting can stop fascists it simply means the political institutions aren't ready to hand power over to them just yet. They are working on it, though.
Accelerationism works both ways, I suppose, but there legitimately are fascists in the republican party.
Doesn't matter. The actual fascists doesn't matter. The thing to be concerned about isn't the fascists themselves - what matters is the liberals that will hand power to the fascists if their precious status quo is threatened enough.
The thing about fascists that nobody except leftists seem to understand is that fascists serve a very distinct purpose in the classical liberal nation-state - they don't exist in a vacuum as some kind of "aberration". Fascism cannot exist without threatened capitalists funding them. Fascism cannot exist without liberals handing power to them to maintain their precious "Law & Order."
There is no such thing as "grass-roots fascism" - it's all coming from above.
Yes it does matter; millions of people will die if Trump wins a second term. Don't lie to our face by claiming it doesn't matter.
Probably. And if the US political establishment actually manages to dig out a competent fascist, many, many more than that will die or have their lives destroyed (which has never been an unusual thing in the US at all - or anywhere the US does "foreign policy").
Your problem isn't Trump. There's a lot more (and much viler) where he came from. Your problem is the political establishment that allows his existence - will they be allowing you to vote on that any time soon?
It makes sense, but I think the downvotes are from people feeling like this is victim blaming as opposed to recognizing what you're actually saying.
It's not Johnny Democrat going to the polls that's allowing fascists to take power, it's Joe Manchin protecting his own wealth by "allowing" a "friendly fascist" to take power, or pass a bill, if it means stopping a Bernie Sanders from taking office or stopping a popular bill that would cost him potential profit. Unless I'm the one who's misunderstanding lol
The downvotes are from reasonable people who understand that this kind of cynicism is privileged teenager nonsense.
No, you're not. If voting could undo fascism it wouldn't exist. If the wants of the majority of people in the US actually counted the US would be a place we couldn't even imagine in this reality - and so would the rest of the world.
I got the exact same response in 2016 as well... even leftists who should have known better hysterically accused me of "accelerationsim" for stating that a Trump presidency would energize the left - which it did (mysteriously, without any "accelerationism" on my part at all).
I don't blame them... people are grasping at straws. It was the same in 2016.
How fucking privileged can you be? This isn't a fucking game. Grow the fuck up.
Are you talking about a certain neocolonialist prodigy of notorious mass-murderer Henry Kissinger, perhaps?
Do tell, liberal - how many lives in the 3rd world would you sacrifice for your venal and hollow "girlboss" fake-feminism?
Yes, we all understand that you've smugly absolved yourself from the burden of real statecraft by being smarter than everyone, but I assure you that plenty of vulnerable people still think your privileged shit stinks like hell.
"the actual fascists don't matter" .......There's no way you just typed that in good faith.
I think I once would have believed this but I do not anymore, and I wouldn't be willing to bet the lives of all people who aren't white, heterosexual cis-men on a resistance suddenly appearing. If anything, it seems like people are more willing to normalize, or at least look away from, atrocities than I would have ever imagined in the past.
Feels like for months all we heard about was kids in cages and how terrible it was (under Trump). Now nobody says a gd thing (under Biden). Seems like it's only acceptable to fight against fascism when it's "the other team."