1451
The state of the discourse.
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
1451 points (100.0% liked)
A Boring Dystopia
13288 readers
1997 users here now
Pictures, Videos, Articles showing just how boring it is to live in a dystopic society, or with signs of a dystopic society.
Rules (Subject to Change)
--Be a Decent Human Being
--Posting news articles: include the source name and exact title from article in your post title
--If a picture is just a screenshot of an article, link the article
--If a video's content isn't clear from title, write a short summary so people know what it's about.
--Posts must have something to do with the topic
--Zero tolerance for Racism/Sexism/Ableism/etc.
--No NSFW content
--Abide by the rules of lemmy.world
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
That's because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
What would convince you? Based on what I can glean from various sources, it seems at least likely that the claim is true. I also don't see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it.
While it does seem plausible. You don't see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it? Really?
Well think about it for a moment. What I mean is that they already know that they will be accused of lying regardless, so why bother "fabricating" an ambiguous account when they could just as easily lie and claim that they found a giant Hamas command center?
In other words, they have no incentive to lie about the attack having achieved ambiguous results unless they are actually telling the truth. If you are going to lie, and if you know you won't be believed regardless, why not go whole hog?
Again, they have no incentive to half-ass it unless they're simply stating the truth.
Sure where is the evidence of all those tunnels? Get outta here IDF shill.
It's under all the rubble, just like the Intel on where the hostages are. 🙄
Huh?
Don't forget the hasbara bots upvoting him!
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children...
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I'm absolutely fine with them killing each other. I'm not okay with the fact that they're both using innocent civilians as pawns.
True, but then to bombard from the air destroying whole buildings and killing many civilians to get to a few combatants under the building is not an ethical or moral move either. You don't get a get out of jail free card for notifying up front, you have to follow through.
Telling someone to evacuate is not enough, you have to verify they have evacuated. If they have not, you should be instead sending in ground troops, and yes with a larger cost in lives and political turmoil, but that is the ethical way.
Non-combatants are not supposed to be involved in combat.
Hamas supporters hate this one trick!
Bullshit. There's evidence of some warnings but with literally thousands of air strikes a week there literally isn't the resources to warn everyone like they did during the "cease fire". And you don't get 10,000 civilians dead in a month by warning them.
That's a point of view I am willing to accept
Has there even been any evidence of that?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-it-has-clear-information-linking-shifa-hospital-to-hamas-held-hostages/
Yea there’s no consensus that the ‘evidence’ produced is reliable. At first IDF showed the hatch to a water cistern and said it was the hatch to the network of tunnels. This new photo could just be a hole in the ground. The tour through the MRI room and truck loaded with weapons could be easily planted. Independent investigations like Forensic Architecture have found discrepancies and raised questions over the legitimacy of IDFs claims. Al Jazeera has reported that IDF had misreported facts to build a narrative.
US intelligence agrees that Hamas was operating out of the hospital, but there not much else backing up these claims right now.
**edited to remove a bad source
Oh okey, I understand better what you mean by "not much to back those claims"
I did some quick searches on him and saw he was with amnesty international. This didn’t come up for me. I’ll remove him as a reference. Appreciate the insight to him.
"IDF says..."
Of course. What reason would they have to lie? /s
Maybe we should wait until there's been a more neutral investigation before deciding it's one hundred percent true.
What I never understand about major news stories is that so many people take everything they see at face value and then consider it indisputable fact. When there's an international war going on, no one thinks that just maybe we're only getting a fraction of reality communicated to us? That it must be the worst game of telephone in terms of accuracy? But then if someone even suggests that maybe there's more to the story, they're conspiracy theorists or they get told what "side" they're on.
We should all be at least somewhat discerning. There's so many different actors with interests in this war. We have no idea what else could be going on that we will never, ever hear about, nor how much spin is being put on the stuff we do hear about.
Do you really think only you had this thought? Don't you think this is exactly what I think about your opinions? And telling this in my face literally does nothing because I am just as convinced that you gobble up Al-Jazeera/Hamas propaganda as, supposedly, I am gobbling up Israeli propaganda?
Come down to Earth buddy
You are wildly bad faith all over the comments, wow.
You went too "down to earth" and need to pull your head outta sand or whatever dark hole you have it shoved into.
I mean independently verified. The idf has a history of lying and some of the stuff mentioned in that article has already been disproven.
What's your explanation for the video in the article? AI-generated? Doctor's fire exit? Aliens?
Wow, a tunnel near a hospital. There's tunnels under my university too. Should the idf siege it?What I'm asking for is clear evidence that Hamas was using the hospital as a command center. I still haven't seen any of that.
Oh yup gotcha. i am stopping here, calling my buddies in Hamas for confirmation
Go ahead. Maybe release another phone convo between Hamas militant one and Hamas militant 2?
Truly unbelievable!! They finally confirmed
Perhaps get them to send you their hostage watching schedule / calendar that the IDF was showing off as evidence too. Or the the mysteriously multiplying guns and "one take" "no editing" english video that has edits in it...
Putting aside the lack of evidence of this, and the Israeli government's history of being caught lying about this kind of thing, how many civilians is it defensible to kill per Hamas militant, and does the calculus change if they're children?
...or are we taking the super credible IDF line and saying the infants are Hamas militants?
Putting aside existing evidence for it
There isn't a specific count. Just like there is no count for "how many Russian civilians has to die for each Ukrainian soldier". Israel didn't ask this war, Hamas did. Hamas is in charge of Gaza, not Israel.
You understand that the Israeli government funded Hamas over the PLO, don't you? Netanyahu signed the death warrant on his own citizens to create the pretext for the genocide he's now accelerating - Netanyahu and the Israeli government did ask for this war.
up to 2005 UN, EU, America, Russia, Israel and a host of middle east intermediates like Qatar: provide aid to Gaza to encourage economic growth, is inevitably siphoned off by Hamas and others for military purposes
2006: UN, EU, America, Russia, Israel: "dear Hamas totes congrats on winning an election, wonder if you could abandon your pledge to genocide Israel and pick up the two state solution discussions where Fatah got up to? Else..y'know.. we'll have to cut aid and stuff coz that's a bit terroristy"
Hamas: "Fuck you infidel! We look forward to strangling your children in their bed" incoherent yelling
UN, EU, America, Russia: deep sigh
Israel: cuts aid, blockades Gaza
Egypt: also blockades Gaza Yo you Hamas bois are batshit insane, no way we're having an open border with you "Muslim brothers"...
Western social science students: why would Israel do this?
I'll keep this simple.
You have a bunch of genocidal dipshits welding small arms embedded in a civilian population, propped up by a genocidal nuclear power with a modern military and F-35s.
Which has the ability to deliver on that genocidal intent, and has been wiping out the other at a rate of between a dozen and five hundred to one over the past few decades?
Why did Israel prop up Hamas over the moderate, secular PLO, who wouldn't murder Israelis?
Okey that is a valid argument! Second one in a dozen of comments or so
Yes i know this mofo funded hamas and hope he ll pay for it. However, the attack on 7 October happened on Israeli territory, not the opposite. That's still a "defensive operation" in my understanding.
I really don't like this argument (defensive genocide? Come on.), but it's one for Palestine in any case - look at the Israeli operation of Palestine as an open air concentration camp, and look at the casualty stats - between a dozen and five hundred Palestinian casualties per Israeli casualty, depending on your datasource and the way you slice it. This would justify the 7 October attack as defensive - which they weren't.
Again, if you combine all that with the fact what Israel have backed the IDF, and the fact that Israel are a nuclear power with an advanced military, and f35s (compared to a paraglider and small-arms) how do you conclude that this is defensive?
a vacuous truth.
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it's okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn't say "it was okey". I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It's an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas, it's Christmas.
The goal of Hamas is not to provoke isreal into a genocide, it's to make people think israel is committing a genocide. It's definitely working.
What was the correct response, according to you?
Not bombing a hospital.
I'm not an expert. So I'd defer to Lt. General James Glynn, survivor of Fallujah on how to approach the situation in Gaza.
I'd also refer to centuries of counter-insurgency that notes that massacring civilians only drives more recruits to the enemy cause, often recruits who are willing to engage in suicide missions.
Even leaving the hospital intact and doing nothing was a better option, and in fact, Israel is not fighting a war of desperation, and can actually afford to approach violence with deliberation and consideration.
The reason Netanyahu is behaving like Trump or George W. Bush is because he likes the idea of rushing in with stormtroopers and crushing the enemy, not because it's actually a good idea. And that's why Hezbollah provoked him in the first place.
I am not a fan of Netanyahu/Trump/Bush neither, however you only described what not to do.
I am still convinced that taking out Hamas out of Gaza is the viable long term solution. I don't know about the hospital, and believe IDF knows better than me
Actually I said doing nothing would be better than what they did so that is, compared to bombing a hospital, a viable alternative.
Getting Hamas out of Gaza is going to be like getting white supremacists out of the US. It's virtually impossible, but when the hearts and minds of the public are not pissed off due to poor governance, they can be reduced to a fringe group.
So if Israel stopped its thousand-year religious resentment plan, provided relief and then promoted equal treatment of the Palestinian public (installed enforcement of civil rights) that would do a tuckfun to reduce the significance of Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist groups Iran or Russia might throw into the mix.
But this requires the right-wing identity groups in Israel giving up their ethnostate and modernizing their attitude — what is a challenge even for the EU and US (though the US stopped trying over a century ago).
So I'm going to watch Israel bath Gaza in the blood of Palistianians and make the rest of the world sick to their stomachs, and we'll all promise, yet again, never to let this happen, to never forget.
See, the consequences of Israel jackbooting like every other imperialist is built into the paradigm. Sadly it'll also add fuel to the antisemitic fires already igniting across the world. The thing is, Netanyahu and the IDF have bought the ticket to ride, as if no lives they cared about were actually in the balance.
Tactical placement and all haha