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IBM pulls X ads as Elon Musk endorses white pride
(www.theverge.com)
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this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2023
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Nah. Queer pride is a good thing.
It's not pride as in "I am proud of this painting I made." Rather, it's pride as in "rejecting shame for being queer".
"Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame." -Uncle Iroh
People really don't understand these slogans. For example, we can look at "Black Lives Matter." It was just a poetic way to say "black lives should matter." The problem with replying with "all lives matter" is that they don't all matter. (Especially in American society LGBT and Native tribes don't always do so well either.) Which is the problem in the first place. These people are denying the issues.
Exactly. "Black Live Matter" is a statement of imperative, as in "look at these people you have been ignoring", while "All Lives Matter" is saying "there is no problem, everything is fine".
But why should rejecting shame automatically turn into pride? I’m not “proud” of every part of me that I’m not ashamed of.
Plus, it’s weird how the things are seen differently. “Queer pride” is usually seen as “sticking it to the homo/transphobes”, while someone saying they’re “proud of being cishet” sounds like they just hate LGBT people (and I mean, that’s probably correct). Why isn’t “proud of being gay” seen with the same acception?
They are proud in order to fight the shame that conservatives constantly tell them they should feel for existing. It's a tool for empowerment and fighting back against oppression.
So in your opinion, if we reached a level of society where no one is oppressed for their identity/sexuality, would it just cease to “be an idiom”?
Let's get there first and then we decide. For now, I'm proud to be gay.
“Let’s get there and then decide” is usually not a good way to tackle issues… but I guess it’s not up to us anyway to decide, unfortunately it looks like it’s going to take a long time before that becomes reality.
This is not an issue and it's not one that needs tackling. It's literally bored Lemmings taking an argument to the extreme for the sake of being argumentative.
It’s currently not an issue, and it’s not going to be one for a long, long time. But it’s still a sort of double standard that will eventually need to be addressed if society progresses enough. Talking about it now is pointless, sure, but so is most stuff people do on the internet.
That's the funniest "hypothetical" shit I've ever heard.
So let be get this right... we're gonna make it an issue because you're bored and need something to grind your axe? I'm glad it's not something that affects you personally to the point that people like you are murdered all over the world for being different.
Because if you think this shit is trivial and annoying, you're drowning in a world filled with privilege.
Anyone that claims to be proud of being white or straight is doing it in opposition of black pride, or queer pride, etc. It might as well be the same as the all lives matter outrage.
Because that’s a logical flaw. “If black people and white people deserve the same rights, and black people can be proud of being black, why can’t white people be proud of being white?”
The difference between normal people and racists is that normal people might think of it as weird, but don’t talk about it because they don’t really care about “white pride”, while racists openly declare it and use the “fallacy” to stir the pot.
I can't believe I'm being downvoted on Lemmy of all places for thinking "white pride" is bad and and the alternatives aren't. I don't even have a rebuttal, I'm just flabbergasted.
Edit: I was 0/5 when I typed this.
I'm being charitable and chalking it up to people with 0 social awareness or life experience who don't realize how much they are enabling the real bigots.
Maybe some healthy open discussion would do us some good then, instead of barricading oneself behind semantic barbed wire in fear of having ones beliefs challenged.
That’s because of the current situation though. People who say it now are like that, so “normal people” don’t say it because it would automatically mean being grouped with them. So only people who don’t care about being labeled as homo/transphobic keep saying that and the “stereotype” reinforces itself.
Or rather, as I said in my first comment, I don’t get why should anyone say they’re proud of being cishet, same as for being proud of the opposite. But we don’t think people in a gay pride parade are being “heterophobic”, it’s seen as a normal thing (by most reasonable people, I mean).
If we look at current society I get the difference in treatment, but from a neutral point of view it’s weird that virtually the same expression, just with sexualities swapped, is seen as either empowering or discriminating.
I still don’t see why something that rightly stopped being a source of shame should turn into a source of pride.
The circumstances of hetero and non-hetero people are vastly different and that’s obvious, but that doesn’t mean they should be “proud” of that. Saying you’re proud of something doesn’t make the people who discriminate you for it disappear.
Short answer - because the original events were called "Pride" and other events that followed that model and style can literally trace the name to two organizers of the original event, Brenda Howard and Robert A. Martin.
Long answer...
What is important to remember about Pride is it is specific. Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual liberation marches pre-date Prides but they were more like a conventional protest and they were poorly attended because you had to expect police violence. They were dour, focused primarily on the pain and hardship of oppression. It was mostly people dressed to look respectable marching with signs to appeal to the cis/hetro masses in a "hey look we're actually just like you!" kind of way.
"Pride" was different. They organized the first event around the concept of Independence day style activities. It was supposed to have the feel of an emancipation celebration and was originally intended to become a National day of observance of the five days of Riots at Stonewall, something that a lot of queer people decided to rally around as essentially the literal fight for independence of queer culture in the US. Shortly thereafter a lot of cultural aspects of Queer community done for fun that actually create a culture like Ballroom culture, Drag performance, dance, theater, caberet, burlesque, various bizzare kink related specialities were spotlighted. Pride took all that stuff that was happening in the shadows and turned it into a public festival. In part it was intended as a "fuck you we are not afraid and there is more of us than you think" but it also gave the public a look at the spectacle of open queer joy. That it was fun and weird meant it became a proper festival. It spread and other events that followed that format also became "Prides". Over time other communities and sub groups within the growing coalition came to define their own means to celebrate together and also came to call then things like "Trans Pride".
So at least in part the "Pride" portion is a historical naming convention for a very specific style of event and festival with a tracable history. It is helpful to understand that "Pride" has a secondary and silent implication of Pride Event "Woo Happy Pride! " is at some point like wishing someone Happy Christmas. "Proud" is in part an event theme that euphemizes that original "fuck you, our culture is valid and we won't be shamed out of the public eye."
Someone going on about "cis pride" is at some point basically just trying to carbon copy a format of protest made for a specific purpose while entirely misunderstanding the original usage. Some argue they don't really need a specific public culture festival or a protest because they are the dominant culture. They get their culture fest from national and religious tinted celebrations and they are accepted as a norm so the protest element is unnecessary. It more comes across more as someone who just doesn't like how queer people have claimed a slice of public space and want to have yet another party to celebrate themselves. It's like throwing an Independence day style celebration but when there is no commemorative event at it's core and no independence that needed to be fought for at all.
I know a debate has derailed when social splintering turns it into a semantic game of RISK.
People have no idea how if feels for kids to be made to feel as they don't belong or that there is something wrong with them. It infuriates me that schools can't teach inclusivity due to terrorist groups like Moms for Liberty.
Given the amount of people that seem to base their whole personality exclusively using this list, it will be a long while before we can move away from these as a collective.
It's the most interesting thing about some people, that's why.
So your pride is defending what you find is right, and your nation happens to be aligned with it currently. If your nation became homophobic, you wouldn't follow it, would you?
When people talk about "LGBT Pride", they're not talking about the "a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements" definition, they're talking about the "confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized" definition.
It's almost like words can have more than one meaning.
Well when they have different meanings for everyone then what good are they? I often feel like when you point out things like the OP here, there's a moving of the goal posts, or no true Scotsman-ing, what goes for one doesn't go for the other. It's an interesting question, why is it ok to be proud of your sexuality, which you have no control over, but not be ok to be proud of your color of skin, which you also have no control over?
Just redefining terms ad hoc depending on which side one happens to identify with makes the whole conversation suspect.
I think of Pride as an acceptance of your sexuality, whatever it may be. The pride in question is a self esteem that comes from being comfortable in who you are.
The last point could be argued, most people say/mean “proud of being their friend/brother/whatever”, and having mutual esteem with someone does take a degree of agency. It’s obviously moot if you have family ties with them but they hate you, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen people being proud of achievements of people who hate them.
The rest I agree, it feels weird unnecessary tribalism most of the time.
A bit of stretch but this why I don't like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin. It is supposed to guarantee quality, but why wouldn't someone be able to make the same quality of cheese given the same cows and quality process anywhere else? It seems to be some kind of weird territorialist pride.
In the abstract, yes, but when a group of people is oppressed because of one of those identifiers, it stops just being a born trait. It also identifies that you're oppressed. Celebrating who you are with regards to that kind of trait (sexuality, sex, race, etc) isn't a celebration of being born a certain way. It's a celebration of self acceptance, and an act of rebellion.
You aren't proud of what you were born with, you're proud of what you were born with, because some people have tried to punish you for that what.
We can add college in there. Choice of college means next to nothing about someone's intellect and personality. Usually it's just rich and/or "legacy" people getting into the prestigious schools. They are almost always pushed into it, or convinced into it by others.