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Vote for Blood God (lemmy.world)
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[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It’s not my opinion, it’s August Nimtz’s. I do agree with it though. FDR did the New Deal. Lincoln did the Emancipation, LBJ did civil rights. Public opinion was a factor, but it was the threat of social unrest that enacted them. As for the example of right wing policies, each Democrat caters to corporations. Maybe not as much as the Republicans, but they still do. After Reagan, we voted for the lesser evil Clinton, who did Welfare Reform and repealed Glass-Steagall. After Bush, we voted for the lesser evil Obama, and change. There was no change, he kept Bush’s surveillance state, did more drone strikes and the War on Terror. Promised healthcare, but borrowed it from Romney and the Heritage Foundation. Then after Trump, we settled for the lesser evil and Biden. Who promised his corporate funders that “nothing would fundamentally change.” We still don’t have healthcare, no campaign finance reform, no student loan forgiveness, scuttled a railroad strike, and is currently complicit in a genocide. If you think we are headed in the right direction; by all means vote for Biden. I see the systemic problems with the electoral duopoly and have no misconceptions that if we continue on this path, social unrest will facilitate the state to quell strikes, protests and riots. Business as usual never necessitates change, only the threat of violence from a social movement can do that. But we need to do that now, before it’s too late. I’m not telling you who to vote for, I will vote for Biden myself. But I’m under no illusion about the situation we are in, and what it takes to get out of it. I’m just disseminating information I found helpful and encouraging. It is better to be an informed electorate than an uninformed one.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago

You haven’t shown how Democrats led to a further move to the right compared to Republicans. For example, Obama tried to pass universal healthcare with a public option. Zero Republicans voted for it, and the public option was defeated by independent Joe Lieberman. If there were one more Democrat in the senate, we would’ve had universal healthcare.

Meanwhile, Republicans under Trump literally tried to repeal Obamacare. The reason why progressive policies don’t pass is NOT because too many people vote for Democrats, but because too few do.

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You haven’t shown how Democrats led to a further move to the right compared to Republicans.

They ain’t moving left.

For example, Obama tried to pass universal healthcare with a public option. Zero Republicans voted for it, and the public option was defeated by independent Joe Lieberman. If there were one more Democrat in the senate, we would’ve had universal healthcare.

Before Sinema, it was Manchin. Before Manchin, it was Lieberman. And if it wasn’t them, it would have been another Democrat. They’re always one vote away. Curious.

The reason why progressive policies don’t pass is NOT because too many people vote for Democrats, but because too few do.

Yeah, why do Progressives’ always have to ask for more rights and a better standard of living? Can’t they just be happy with the way things are?

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

None of these respond to my points. Democrats passed Obamacare. They were one vote away from going even further left with a public option. Meanwhile, Republicans were ALL votes away from any healthcare reform. Claiming that Democrats made the country go further right than Republicans is completely bizarre.

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Is it? The Affordable Care Act was a palliative. It served its purpose of pretending to solve a problem, but making it worse. Life expectancy is declining, housing is becoming unaffordable, college tuition continues to rise, there’s a mental health epidemic. Even when Democrats have had control of Congress and the Presidency, nothing substantial changes. Maybe next time, right?

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

Yes, the US should’ve also passed a public option. That would’ve made the US system very similar to those in Scandinavian countries (who don’t have single payer btw). But again the reason we didn’t get it is not because we had too many Democrats! Remember: that’s the extreme thesis you’re defending and providing no evidence for.

How do Scandinavian countries get their progressive policies? It’s not by voting for the right leaning party!

[-] drislands@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Thank you so much for your patient and clear defense of reason. The person you're arguing with is certainly not arguing in good faith -- they are constantly throwing out partial truths and never once addressing your actual point. You're adding a lot of value in the way you're commenting, and I salute you.

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Lol. TIL: Good faith means you have to agree with me.

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

That is not my thesis. My thesis is that it doesn’t matter if it is Republicans, or Democrats. You are never getting ranked choice voting. It is a threat to DNC control. The government is captured by corporations through special interests and lobbying. It’s never getting better with voting. Only with a social movement will things change.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

You explicitly said you endorsed Nimitz, who said voting for the lesser evil leads to right leaning policies. Now you’re defending the much more modest thesis that it doesn’t matter who you vote for. You never said this before. Even this less crazy thesis is extremely dubious. I’ve given dozens of examples of how voting matters.

Other countries have changed voting systems. How did they do it, despite it threatening control by the ruling parties? Voting, actually. I agree that it will take a social movement, but it’s utterly bizarre that you seem to think that’s somehow orthogonal to voting. Trump had historically low favorability even amongst Republicans until he won. His winning an election caused a social movement to take root.

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

“It’s a mistake to think you’re exercising political power [by voting]. What you’re doing is registering a preference,” said August Nimtz, a political science professor at the University of Minnesota. Nimtz was clear that a vote does not directly impose one’s will upon the political system as many believe it does. Nimtz also argued that the action of voting is the opposite of most meaningful political action: it is one taken alone, and is often over in a matter of minutes. Real political change stems from sustained collective action. Source

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Democrats passed Obamacare.

And have coasted on it for a decade and a half.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

Yes it’s pretty disappointing. And even worse, during Trump, the US was much closer to repealing Obamacare than extending it.

But why describe this as Democrats coasting instead of blaming Republicans? Are you expecting Democrats to expand publicly funded healthcare without control of the House, and barely controlling the Senate with two conservative Dems?

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

But why describe this as Democrats coasting instead of blaming Republicans?

Because they keep expecting gratitude for taking the plan Obama ran on and nerfing it down to what Clinton ran on. And not doing anything at all in the intervening years to improve it. It's been 15 years. All we're getting now is minor piddly shit that the party tarts up as the greatest thing in the history of mankind.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Do they expect gratitude? Obamacare hasn’t been a major piece of marketing in a long time, except when Republicans demand it be repealed.

In fact, that’s revisionist history: Democrats were heavily punished for Obamacare by voters, not rewarded. Polling showed that the farther left public option, called “death panels” by the right, was even less popular. The left, as is typical, quickly abandoned Dems to “teach them a lesson”, and we had 8 years of “Tea party” crazies controlling congress.

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Do they expect gratitude? Obamacare hasn’t been a major piece of marketing in a long time, except when Republicans demand it be repealed.

Here's you touting it because Democrats haven't had any successes that have approached it in 15 years:

https://lemmy.world/comment/5373174

Polling showed that the farther left public option, called “death panels” by the right, was even less popular.

Congratulations on killing it for Republicans then. How'd that work out for the party? Oh yeah, Republicans still voted against you and you alienated the people who voted for you.

But at least you get to blame everyone to your left for the results of your party's greatest accomplishment: killing the public option.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

I am not touting it. The specific claim we’re discussing is whether voting for democrats cause right leaning policies compared to voting for republicans. It didn’t. Nothing you’ve said has addressed this point.

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I am not touting it. The specific claim we’re discussing is whether voting for democrats cause right leaning policies compared to voting for republicans.

It doesn't and I never said it did. But let's not pretend that it's preventing right leaning policies or putting left leaning policies in place.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Obamacare is a left leaning policy compared to what came before. So I’m not pretending anything. It is very bizarre to claim otherwise.

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago
this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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