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this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
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Ethical duty, not legal duty in that hypothetical. I don't believe he had that right, though.
i was under the impression he had to sign paperwork stating he was responsible for the documents specifically, and legally. you dont just get to grab secret crap without process.
He thinks he can. He said that stuff wasn't secret because he thinks it's not secret
Not only is there legal process, but he swore an oath to the US. What part of holding secrets insecurely helps the US?! Your brain is iliterally mush.
Yeah, great reading comprehension on your part friend. Now feel free to explain to me the interplay between the oath of office, administrative law, and the lack of codified law on the subject.
Why does Hillary Clinton deserve to be locked up for her handling of emails, and yet what Trump has admitted to doing here doesn't go beyond "ethical dilemma" (and even that seems like a stretch for you)?
As in, the poster making an argument that he had the right to handle documents however he wanted
As in, I don't think he was able to do that.
Are you people fucking this dense? I am not a trump supporter.
Did... you reply to the wrong comment?
I think you may have, since as you can see by the quotes my comment has about zero relevance to Hillary and is in response to a hypothetical and not my feelings on the case as a whole.
Ohhh hey. I recognize that username.
Isn't it interesting how, when a community is much smaller, we can often remember who the nice folks are. The ones who usually add interesting context, those who make actual funny posts and comments. People who bring actual professional knowledge and insight into interesting conversations...
Then you have the other side of the coin. The names you recognize for the bad reasons... Welcome to that list, bud.
Hello pot, I'm the kettle.
Is "kettle" another term for "someone who is constantly confidently incorrect"?
I know it's either that or, "a person who's profession is to muddy the waters on social media to further/denigrate a specific cause, and/or to simply sow chaos and discord online."
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'm leaning toward the former. But stranger things have occurred...
You mostly seem to like to post smug personal attacks in my interactions with you, but hey, you can operate under whatever delusions you want. It doesn't bother me.
I don't attack any interactions with anybody. In fact, I don't even know what that means. I just recognized the username, and thought it was interesting that I didn't need RES to tell me that your opinions can be safely ignored, and that I shouldn't waste my time trying to have a good faith conversation with you.
Uh huh, well feel free to contact me if you ever arrive at a point.
Are you illiterate?
Your brain is mush. You are literally too stupid to understand, "don't betray the US by giving away secrets."
You are truly beyond pathetic.
I see that you still have no idea what the hell I was talking about, but you still consider yourself superior.
the guy literally signed a piece of paper that said what would happen if he did not return those specific documents, whether he declared them secret or not.
its not about th 'secret' part of it.
its that he signed a legal document regarding responsibility, and orangina over there still thinks, like you do it appears, it has anything to do with anything be marked 'secret'
'top secret' is irrelevant with regards to this document case.
Care to answer the other gentleman (or gentlewoman/gentleperson)'s question?
I'll even post it here again to remind you in case you forgot:
Or are you still waiting for your email with the updated talking points?
Why the fuck do you think I give a shit about Hilary's emails? You seem to have confused me, an anti-fascist socialist, for a Trump supporter.
Remind me again how Hilary's emails were a crime but the literal theft of top secret documents is just an ethical dilemma?
Maybe, just maybe this depends on which political party / person is doing the thing?
I was talking about this guy's actual legal arguments about hypothetical administrative powers of the presidency. I do not give a shit about Hillary's emails and I did feel that what trump did was illegal.
You have to, they can't start a criminal investigation if they didn't think it was a crime. Both crimes are just as equally "administrative".
Similarly all of our foundational documents are living documents so a penalty just needs to be issued and precedent would be set. No one legitimately expected such a fucking masturbatory love of a document the writers of specifically said to change ... Often and as the need presents.
No, I'm talking about law. Administrative law is set by the administrative branch of the government as delegated by congress. It's not codified, but is the policy and procedures of those administrative bodies, which has the force of law. Breaching those policies and procedures, which is what Trump did, is in violation of administrative law.
A legal duty is a more nebulous concept that is generally based on legal precedent. Usually has to do with something related to torts. You can't just take someone to court for an novel legal duty and expect that to magically stick criminally. It needs to be codified by congress or created in administrative law first.
If it's a law they have a legal duty, your hedging doesn't particularly make sense.
legal
1 of 2
adjective
le·gal ˈlē-gəl
Synonyms of legal
1
: of or relating to law
She has many legal problems.
2
a
: deriving authority from or founded on law : DE JURE
a legal government
b
: having a formal status derived from law often without a basis in actual fact : TITULAR
a corporation is a legal but not a real person
c
: established by law
especially : STATUTORY
the legal test of mental capacity—K. C. Masteller
3
: conforming to or permitted by law or established rules
The referee said it was a legal play.
Fishing in this lake is legal.
4
: recognized or made effective by a court of law as distinguished from a court of equity
5
: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of the profession of law or of one of its members
a bottle … that some legal friend had sent him—J. G. Cozzens
6
: created by the constructions of the law
A legal fiction is something assumed in law to be a fact regardless of the truth of that assumption.
legal
2 of 2
noun
: one that conforms to rules or the law
I'm not getting into semantics, I'm talking about the original post I replied to, namely
Which is talking about a duty in derived sense, not a codified duty.
He does, nothing you've offered implies or states otherwise.
No, it has to do with a law or rather a series of them an oath to office and an oath to maintain national secrets.
That's the definition of a derived duty, and it isn't what I'd call "law."
18 usc 1924 Is a law that created a duty, a legal duty.
(a)
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.
You say you don't want to play semantics but that's your entire argument.
You actually don't understand my argument. What you're talking about now is WHY I think trump broke the law. It has nothing to do with oaths of office. Oaths of office do NOT create a legal duty. That code, as well as the administrative law around
from that code is what creates a legal duty.
I understand your argument, don't be patronizing.
No I don't care what you think about Trump or if he broke the law.
It does, you swear to follow the law they make you take it specifically so they can increase penalties, it quite literally increases legal responsibility.
There is no "administrative branch" in the US government.
That I'll concede. Can you guess what I meant though.
you should stop using 'top secret', because its almost irrelevant and bad actors are grabbing onto it like it has substance.
hes being prosecuted for document mishandling, regardless of 'top secret' status. their secret status is irrelevant (technically, not morally).
There are lists higher punishments for the level of security. There are a few excuses for this shit that somewhat make some sense, yours just now is not one of them.
When he was within his term of office then as POTUS he could reveal classified information to anybody if he felt it was appropriate. Previous presidents have done precisely this, disclosing classified information during state of the union addresses, etc. The important thing to keep in mind here is that the material actually remains classified. Just because the POTUS mentioned something classified it doesn’t mean everybody in the White House, military, CIA, etc. are now free to talk about it as well.
At the same time he could declassify specific material, typically via an executive order. The key is that this is a formal process with a paper trail that lets all the appropriate governmental agencies, departments, etc know precisely what is being declassified. He can’t just verbally say something like “this box of papers is now declassified”. At the very least there would need to be a printed list of exactly what is in the box.
The minute Trump left office he lost the ability to perform both these things. At that point he’s basically considered a civilian with a security clearance. He can have access to appropriate classified material, but he’s not at liberty to disclose any of it.
Yes and no, there is a clarification the president cannot disclose without approval as well.
https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/
Legal duty, you swear an oath to enter office in these United States hoss.
Penalty for breaching that oath is impeachment. That's not a codified measure, and why a whole lot of the arguments are based on administrative law, norms, and exactly how the president makes new administrative law. If it was codified, it'd be a different story.
No it's not. What do you imagine the entire Florida case to be about if not the illegal handling of classified documents? This is a matter of public record and can be confirmed on a huge variety of news sources.
I think it's about breaching administrative policies and procedures in the handling of classified materials with penalties based on the codified law delegating those procedures to the executive. What I don't believe it its based on concepts of legal duty derived from things like the oath of office.
You cannot take them oath again if you violate it. He can run but he cannot take office nor enter his name onto official election rolls.