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Hamas threatens execution of Israeli captives if Gaza attacks continue
(www.aljazeera.com)
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this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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I dunno, the internet has told me that Israel is just as bad. I definitely remember when the IDF took a bunch of civilian women and children as hostages and then announced that it was going to livestream their murder.
Oh wait.
There are no good guys in that conflict.
Only bad guys and victims.
Hamas being terrorists doesn't make it OK for Israel to be committed to genocide any more than Israel's existence as an ethnofascist apartheid state makes in OK for Hamas to be bombing proms.
Both organizations are making it impossible for Palestinians to live peacefully.
If Israel were committed to genocide there would be no Palestine. It is their historical sensitivity to genocide and limitations placed on them by international law and foreign pressures that imposes on them very different standards of behavior in this war. If they operated by the same set of rules that Hamas does, this conflict would have been over long ago.
Israel does not perform atrocities like this. This wasn't collateral damage, this wasn't an attack on a valid military target, it was intentionally kidnapping, raping, and murdering civilians. This sort of behavior makes it very hard for me to swallow the, "both sides are equally bad," narrative. I had a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian situation before, it is quickly evaporating.
Israel has turned Gaza into an open air prison. Today Bibi announced the blockade would become total, including food, water, and medicine, which sure sounds like a path to genocide, but I'll save that criticism until it actually plays out. In general, Israel is an apartied state. Hamas is a bunch of murderous terrorists committing war crimes, doing far more harm to their supposed cause than good. This attack will result in far more of their people suffering. But they count on that, hate within the Palestine community in Gaza is what gives them political power, so the civilians Isreal is currently killing will just continue to fuel the cycle of violence.
Everyone sucks here, Hamas sucks way way way more, but that doesn't make Israel "good". If you compare Nazi Germany to apartied South Africa, the former is going to win the evil country contest everytime. But that doesn't make apartied South Africa good. If it wasn't for the Book of Revelations, America (it's government and it's people) would care as much about this conflict as it does about various civil wars and genocides happening all over the world, which is to say not at all (unless oil or other natural resources are imperilled).
My understanding is the border crossing with Egypt is still open, so Palestine can still have access to all of that.
You make a good point about no one having clean hands in this conflict, but one party here seems willing to commit atrocities that the other is not. One party is historically willing to compromise and negotiate for a viable solution and the other has not, and in fact has it in their charter that they will not negotiate or compromise.
What we need to end this amicably is a solution that neither party is happy with, one they are equally dissatisfied with, because that is a hallmark of compromise. If one or both parties are unwilling to compromise, the erosion of Palestinian lands and power will continue as it has, and such atrocious acts may serve to hasten it.
The border crossing to Egypt is usually only for people when it's open. As I understand it, all goods have to use a different crossing passing into Israel first and then Gaza.
why all the innocent palestinians arent rushing for the border to get out is beyond me. you know what's coming. being dead and saying 'i told you the bastards would kill me' sounds great up until the point you are dead.
Hoping Israel doesnt unleash possibly the most intense campaign of this generation is a fools dream really and unless you are a combatant, you'd get the hell out ASAP. Hamas is going to be blown to limbs and those that survive the bombings and full scale assaults are going to wind up Munich'd after all this is over. They cant do what they did and not expect utter retribution
Probably because Egypt isn't going to let them in either.
well instead of acting like a little bitch about it, maybe work on that solution
Yeah, let me just call up the government of Egypt and tell them to let in 2 million refugees.
I’m not denying that some of this is factual reporting, but that particular source can be very biased with respect to Israel.
Source
Hate to point out the irony, especially in this context... but at the rate things are going, in another 5 years there probably won't be a Palestine.
"Israel are the good guys because the international community has stopped them from completing the genocide at a quick pace"
God I really hope a ethno state claims your own land as theirs, puts you in an open air prison as it gradually steals pieces of it for its owns settlers year after year, denies you food and medicines. Shoots women, children, medics and reporters in your community.
Work on your reading comprehension, because you conveniently ignored much of what I wrote. The Jews were genocided. They don't want to genocide others, unlike their opponents.
20% of the state of Israel is Palestinian/arab, with full citizenship and rights. It seems their behaviors are motivated by self-defense, not destroying an ethnic group.
If I my country theoretically started a losing war with our neighbor and then refused to make peace when we lost, I'd expect to be occupied by hostile soldiers and be denied autonomy until my country did. When a hostile army is occupying and guerilla attacks or riots/uprisings happen, people get shot. It's almost like there are consequences for endless violence and open warfare against one's neighbor. No side has a monopoly on victimhood here.
The fact that you would wish such ills on others for recognizing this, that you look at this conflict in such a reductive way, is telling of your character.
And muslims were killed on mass as part of that same genocide, so that means they physical cant be involved in a genocide of their own right?
Can you read your own wikipedia article?
Or can we talk about how whats going on in Israel is recognised as apartheid?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
You people are physically incapable of having a good faith thought on this issue. The Palestinians didnt "start a war with their neighbour" They had their land taken from them by the west so they could replace their Jewish populations.
Lmao cope.
This seems incoherent, I don't follow. What are you trying to say?
I did read the article, you seem to have difficulty with verb tenses. That was in the past. At present Arab Israelis have the same legal citizen rights as Jewish Israelis.
Thanks for the link, I will watch that when I get the chance.
"You people," classy. What people are you including me among in order to dismiss my opinion? Spell it out for me.
This conflict is a long and winding road, but based on my understanding that's exactly what happened. Palestinians didn't like the UN partition plan so they resorted to violence and attacked their Jewish neighbors, triggering the Arab-Israeli War of 1948:
Grow up.
You're arguing Jewish people would perpetrate genocide simply because Jewish people on the past were victims (despite all the evidence that they are currently commiting a genocide) so I took that same logic and applied it to the Muslims of palestine.
Jfc. I'm guessing you're also one those people that says "why do we have lgbt/womens/black rights? You already have all your rights?"
You people as in people who go out of their way to disregard reality to simp for a religious apartheid ethno state that is commiting genocide.
Again, you're phrasing it as if Israel and palestine had coexistence as neighbours then palestine decided to attack out of no where. The UN (or more specifically the British) decided they were just going to take the Palestinians land to make a country of their own in an act of blatant colonialism. So they were responding to being invaded.
I never wrote nor implied that, in fact I wrote the opposite; Israel is not willing to commit genocide, unlike Hamas. You do have terrible reading comprehension.
Riiight. Nice misdirection. I think we all know what you meant.
Israel is a theocracy, but it can't be an ethnostate when other ethnicities have full citizen rights and live among the population.
The only party here out to commit genocide is Palestine, Hamas is very explicit about that. See my link above.
Your worldview is completely twisted when fighting back against genocidal terrorists slaughtering your civilians is genocide and the slaughterers are the sympathetic party.
I didn't say out of no where, but according to my reading they did in fact start the war. There were other ways to respond to the UN partition plan than through violence. Palestine chose violence and continues to choose violence up to this day, and they are still suffering from that decision. Had they been willing to peacefully coexist history would have played out differently for them.
Yes you did, almost word for word and yourw still doing it now. Israel IS commiting genocide right as we fucking speak.
What did I mean then? Since you apparently know better than I do?
Lol sure, and uyghurs have the sane rights as the Han Chinese in China, so that means they all live in peace and there's nothing bad going on there either right?
You are going so far out of you way to deny reality to deny any wrong Israel does. I really fucking wish Israel was actually this egalitarian utopia that you think it is. But if you read the report from amnesty International I sent you, you would see how delusional your perception of Israel is.
Oh yeah totally and if the American Indians chose peace instead of attacking the white settlers then they could have avoided the genocide. Really if you think about it the trail of tears was entirely there fault right? They shoukd have just let the settlers claim their la d whil3 they went through the proper channels. Oh and btw the Arabs did that before any armed conflict, appealing to the international court of justice to say the UN should not be able to forcibly partition a state against the will of most of its inhabitants but were (shockingly) shut down. The Arab higher committee organised a general strike in protest of the UN resolution.
Also you're not right, the conflict between Jewish settlers and Arabs had been going on since the late 1800s when a settler shot an Arab at a wedding. And the start of the hostilities that became the civil war and later the israel- Arab war was when a zionist paramilitary group brutally murdered a Arab family because they suspected them to be informants for the British (at this point the zionist group had been commiting terrorist attacks against British forces for some time) Then the broader war was triggered when the Jewish settlers unilaterally declared """independence""" and the formation of their own state, despite Palestine and the Arab league not agreeing to any terms like that. And personally I would say declaring a revolution like that counts as starting the war.
Snark aside, I do completely agree, and there's a lot that I would criticize Israel for. That list does not, however, include mass murder, rape, and kidnapping of random civilians.
Rape and kidnapping maybe not but did you just say that Israel hasn't been murdering Palestinians? Or are you saying they've never murdered more than 200 at once
You know as well as I do that the IDF does not go around Palestinian villages slaughtering everyone they see.
Israel's hands are not remotely perfectly clean, and there have absolutely been actions that are reprehensible, but the operations of the IDF and Hamas are not remotely equivalent, as you're perfectly aware.
Yes I'm aware it's different but I'm wondering why you phrased it like there hasn't been violence against (non-hamas) Palestinian citizens by Israel.
Because the scale and level of intention to harm civilians are completely incomparable. Israel is generally not trying to murder every Palestinian citizen it finds. Meanwhile, that is Hamas' explicit reason for existing, as literally stated in their founding charter.
Israel has done a lot of shit, and I don't deny that. But it hasn't acted the way Hamas does.
Because that’s their only talking point
It does include apartheid, genocide, belief in racial superiority and murdering journalists though. We can’t equate what one side has done with the other as one side has generally held all the power while one side has been persistently oppressed. Also, it’s pretty hard to say whether mass murder, rape and kidnapping civilians is as bad as, worse than, or better than genocide.
The Israeli government regularly commits atrocities and crimes against humanity. Hamas regularly commits atrocities and crimes against humanity. There are no good guys here, just bad guys in charge being funded and goaded by other bad guys and innocent civilians being needlessly murdered.
The equivalency discussions are all BS.
Terrorist attacks targeting civilians are bad.
Also, indiscriminate bombing killing civilians is bad.
A civilized world really shouldn't condone either. And one doesn't justify the other.
Flying planes into civilian buildings killing thousands wasn't an appropriate response to their government supporting tyrants who tortured and killed dissidents. (Also, probably not a good idea to support tyrants.)
The hundreds of thousands of civilians who died in the middle east in response to those attacks shouldn't have had to pay the price on such an attack even if their country had had anything to do with it in the first place.
The only appropriate "both sides" in these kinds of situations is the capacity to have empathy and regret over the suffering that occurs to normal people trying to live their lives on both sides of the conflicts.
Unfortunately a lot of what I'm seeing online these days is the logical equivalent of "Bin Laden was justified in 9/11 because the US's foreign policy caused the suffering of many in the middle east." Logic I happen to think is pretty disgusting personally, just as I've also always found dismissal of civilian suffering in broader military responses reprehensible.
Not a lot of countries have clean hands to be pointing fingers with, but the only way we move towards a world with less blood on our collective hands is by unequivocally pointing to human rights abuses where they occur and saying "this is not okay."
Not "this is okay because so and so bombed a city block first and wasn't touching black while saying I'm rubber and you're glue."
No - targeting or indiscriminately killing civilians is not okay - full stop.
And if one's attitude about the civilian deaths of one group of people is anything less than that, they might just be a bit racist towards that group of people, and may want to reexamine how they look at fellow humans and the degree to which minor differences in skin color or religion or ancestral identity outweighs the commonality of the human experience of pain, suffering, and loss.
TL;DR: It's perfectly appropriate to recognize that the Palestinian people have suffered injustice and mistreatment while also recognizing that a terrorist attack on Israeli civilians is repugnant. The mental gymnastics to recognize the former and not the latter is pretty gross though, and honestly every time I see it (and frequently these days) I can't help but think it probably really does boil down to racist assholes using false equivalency to justify their bigotry.
Rest assured, I understand the mess fairly well. I've spent a decent amount of time in Middle East and know several Palestinians and Israelis.
There's quite a lot that I'd strongly criticize Israel for, but intentional murder and rape of civilians is something that can never be justified, no matter how much critical theory you read.
I love this take because it implies that Palestinians, on their own, are incapable of self-determination and self-governance without degenerating into raping, slaving, barbarians, thereby justifying the existence of Gaza and Israel's actions; yet, this is presented earnestly, without a hint of irony or self-awareness, and with the veil of being in some way pro-palestinian.
You don't think cutting off food, water, and power to millions isn't an are we the baddies moment too?
Both sides are acting like petulant children while their people suffer
They don’t take them hostage, usually they just kill them right there.
You know as well as I do that the IDF has never done anything like what happened on Saturday. Kidnapping children? Shooting random people waiting at a bus stop? Slaughtering 200 people at a festival? Taking a hundred hostages and then threatening to murder them while live streaming it?
Israel has done a lot of shit, and deserves criticism for all of it, but it has not done anything comparable to this.
They have regularly and repeatedly carried out air strikes targeting civilian infrastructure with no evidence of military targets.
There are multiple reports from multiple years of IDF soldiers killing children, including the recent video of soldiers killing a young boy in front of a cheering crowd.
What about all the videos of the things IDF has done to people in the West Bank? Countless reports of women being raped before being thrown from their homes, and their family members being shot for resisting having their land stolen from them.
Yes, what happened the other day was terrible. But it’s not unilateral, Israel has committed war crimes against Palestinians for decades. Just because they have been spread out instead of all happening on one day does not make them better.
Just your typical 80 yr occupation with no real options to even become a state, I mean how bad could that be right?
Except that Oslo accord that they walked out on, and that fact that this is happening in the Gaza strip, a section of Palestinian controlled land with the 1967 borders, a foreign and maritime border and had all Jewish residents (including those that predated the 1948 beginning of hostilities) evicted, often an gunpoint and has had autonomy for nearly two decades now right? Besides that option.