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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don't think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It's a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It's a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can't protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You're forgetting the key aspect -- they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they're going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That's good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It's also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they're scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they'd attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Not surprisingly, I do agree with your perspective: They want Israeli to attack. They want to ~~chance~~ change the status quo.
When you say 'many Palestinians', I would say those are the ones who live in the West Bank, controlled by Fatah. Fatah made acceptable deals with Israeli, and somenow their live are getting better, more survivable. But Hamas doesnt agree with these deals. They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period. And the people of Gaza supported this POV and they elected Hamas in the first place, which means they are ready to suffer the consequences when giving the support.
Palestinians are divided into two fractions. In some ways, the attack could be an attempt to reunite and change it back to one.
Except that these attacks weren't against the settlers (who are taking land in the west bank), it's targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages. I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
I could be wrong on that. I stand corrected if that's the case.
Yes, but it's best to attack where it is least expected. Other than that, it's open to discussion/speculation. Whatever it is, it is a very well thought and executed plan where they expect great retaliation. One thing, The Hamas don't trust Fatah, and some pro-Palestin Muslim even regard Fatah as traitor. Maybe the Saudi-Israel normalisation plan got something to do with it? Maybe someone can give their input on these.
I check Ofakim, one of the affected area.
You're right on that. They population has been there since the 50s.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn't they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel's brutal actions against Palestinians didn't crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They've attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I've seen such violence against Israel.
People can only take so much. It's part of the bully play book. Push them until they break and then blame them for everything.
The only options are be genocided or be genocided quicker if there's no fear of retaliation. They're choosing to go out on their own terms.
Sure, until Israel overreacts and starts a war that kills tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Then people's sympathies will go back to the underdog in the fight, which is the Palestinians.
Yay…?
Man you've got a real hard on for Hamas.
We are trying to analyze and make sense of the situation, and all you can add to the discussion is by attacking me ad hominem? Thanks.
I don't think there's any arguing with the stone cold fact that Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas.
A combination of this and a religion that brainwashed them into thinking that if they die while trying to murder other people that they will go to paradise and have a bunch of little girls as wives.
A victim of bullying will eventually lash out whether or not they think they have a chance because they become desperate.
Are they a victim of bullying when their official policy is the destruction of their neighbors culture?
They are a victim of bullying when they've been under decades of illegal occupation. Hamas is an awful organization, but it was only formed as a result of ongoing brutal oppression. When you keep punching someone in the face, sooner or later they'll start punching back, and sometimes they'll fight dirty. That doesn't make them good, but the bully is still the one who kicked things off in the first place and the one who should be first and foremost held responsible for the situation they created.
Hamas individual victims get my full sympathy; they're victims of both Hamas and Israel. Israel as a state does not - without their brutal oppression, extensive war crimes, and apartheid regime, there wouldn't be any Hamas in the first place.
What if the bully went up to someone and said "I'm going to fucking kill you" and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area? Only Palestine and Hamas before now were the ones saying the Jews deserved death AND acted upon it multiple times. I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems. I'm sure those thai workers and rave tourists, massacred, raped, killed and kidnapped has a lot to do with the fucking situation between Israel and Hamas/Palestine. Israel isn't clean, but in 1 day and 1 act became the cleaner of the 2 in non Arab public perception.
Nice "whatabout", but the bully here is the party that engaged in an illegal occupation, the crime of apartheid, and extensive war crimes (annexation through settlement of occupied territory) in the first place. That you try to redefine away the fact that Israel created this situation in the first place borders on apartheid-apologism. It's exactly the same tactic used by supporters of South African apartheid to dismiss the situation in South Africa whenever the ANC carried out a violent operation, and it was apologism for oppression then, and it is apologism for oppression now.
Nah fam, if you want to play that game Arabs invaded Jewish communities that had settled there during the muslim conquests, that's over 2,000 years of illegal occupation. If you're fine with that, you should be fine with Israel taking back their land at the "edge of a sword".
Also it's funny to hear you say killing innocent people not involved with the conflict is "apartheid apology"
Only one party is currently illegally occupying land they have legal claim to and engaging in the crime of apartheid. Only one party is engaged in fighting against an illegal occupier. That you choose to argue in favour of the apartheid regime engaged in an illegal occupation says enough.
Do they have a legal claim to it? If they stole the land it shouldn't matter how long ago it was right? That's the Palestinian logic I'm seeing.
Who? Israel? No, they do not have a legal claim to the occupied areas, or they wouldn't be occupied. Both irrespective of the occupation, the crime of Apartheid is a crime against humanity under the Rome statute.
The Israeli Supreme Court has ever since 1967 consistently accepted the Israeli government's own contention that the territories are occupied, and not part of Israel proper, because if they were part of Israel, then Palestinians affected by Israeli oppression would have far stronger legal claims.
So if you want to argue that the occupied territories belong to Israel, you're arguing against the position of both Israel the state and the Israeli Supreme Court.
See "The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel", David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012
I'm simply applying the logic the Palestinians apply. There were ruins of a 2000 year old Jewish temple and a 1500 year old mosque in the region. Guess which one is older. I'd also feel more empathy for the apartheid conditions if Palestinians would stop electing a political group who's stated goals are the deaths of every Jewish person. And as I said it's comical you keep saying I support apartheid policies by simply stating killing, raping, torturing, kidnapping, and forcing innocent people to be used as human shields is fucking wrong and deplorable no matter what side does it. If Ukraine starts liquidating Russian cities and raping, torturing, kidnapping, and using innocent's as human shields I'd say the same fucking thing to them and pull my support. If this is how Palestine wants to do things I shed no tears as they are destroyed. "By any means" works both ways.
This might be relevant if it was a Palestinian state imposing apartheid on Israel. If so, they would be equally worthy of condemnation irrespective of who had which historical claim to what land.
But they are not, so bringing it up is yet another attempt at victim-blaming.
Had Israel stopped at a point of doing the bare minimum to secure its legally recognized borders, or indeed the borders they themselves recognize, and attempted to avoid oppressing innocent civilians for decades, there'd likely still be conflicts, but then Israel would have something of a moral leg to stand on. They have not. They do not. As it is, they are occupiers, as recognized by their own government and their own courts.
Hamas didn't even exist until a couple of decades into the oppression. It was formed as a result of the failure of PLO to get Israel to the table, so this is blaming the victims again for responding to decades of Israeli unwillingness to end their oppression.
Also, notice how in contrast to your repeated talk of the Palestinians as a unified group while assigning blame, not once have I tried to blame the Israeli people as a whole for Israel's actions, despite the fact that a majority of them have elected governments in every single election for the entire existence of their state that have continued a policy of illegal occupations and apartheid?
I stand by that. Just like the Palestinian people as a whole can not be judged for the actions of Hamas, neither can the Israeli people as a whole be judged for the actions of the Israeli state.
Are you going to do the same, or are you going continue to assign collective blame to people including the millions on either side who have no power whatsoever to influence the actions of any of the belligerent parties and/or who oppose them? Including the millions in the West Bank who are largely cut off from even being able to intervene in what goes on in Gaza due to Israeli apartheid policies beyond the control of Palestinians in the West Bank.
When you criticise only specific and limited outcomes of the oppression rather than the oppression itself, then, yes, it's natural to presume you're fine with the oppression. Notice how even here you only express opposition to the killing of innocents, and not against the imposition of apartheid or the illegal occupation that created the conditions for it over multiple generations.
If your support for opposition to oppression is contingent on the oppressed doing no wrong, then you're really just looking for any excuse to side with the oppressors.
My support for the Ukranian people, as for the Palestinian people is unconditional. That does not mean I support every action made on their behalf. I do not. That does not mean there aren't actions I find deplorable. It does not mean I don't sympathise with innocent victims.
It does mean that in an asymmetric fight the oppressor is the only side that has the choice of ending the oppression, and until they do they have no moral standing to complain when some of their victims lash out in desperation - the oppressor is ultimately always the culpable party for every consequence of their oppression.
Anything else is to create an incentive for oppressors to be extra brutal in order to provoke an extreme response, knowing that if they do, they'll have people like you ready to dismiss the plight of the entire oppressed population because some of them were pushed into a level of desperation where they've gone too far.
You can write total novels of nonsense we don't even need AI.
Your revisionist history is laughable, I suggest you learn about the actual history of the region and what you're claiming being complete and utter nonsense. Beyond the fact Israelis have holy sites predating Palestinians, beyond the fact Palestine has lost multiple wars over the area, beyond the fact they agreed to a 2 state solution in the 90s then reneged and attacked Israel, beyond the fact they elect a genocidal government that will only bring themselves ruin, beyond all that to your last point, you are correct. When you cut toddlers throats and rape Innocents who have NO SLIGHTS AGAINST YOU, film it for fun plus have genocide as your prime governmental policy I give 0 shits about your plight regardless of what pushed you there. You deserve to get pushed around by the people you have a desire to wipe off the face of this Earth. To quote the bible, "live by the sword, die by the sword."
Ah so you're a fuckin Zionist, GOT IT. I knew I smelled fascist.
???? I'm an atheist lol.
Let me ask you though, is it okay killing toddlers regardless of which side does it?
Yeah I fuckin fully support killing toddlers no matter the situation it's always okay.
And Zionism isn't strictly religious, it's a settler-colonial movement/project.
Your blood and soil arguments are entirely irrelevant to the point that Israel itself does not make the extremist claims you're making. You keep recycling this despite its total lack of relevance to the argument. And in doing so you're aligning yourself with a tiny minority of the most far-right extremist fascist-adjacent Israeli parties.
Again you're collectively blaming a population, the majority of which were not born when the Oslo accords were signed (look it up; 65% of the Palestinian population is below 25 years old, and the Oslo accords were signed 30 years ago) for actions a far higher proportion had no influence over.
I'm assuming you don't get the irony in writing this when it can be equally applied to Israel.
Of the two sides, only one has a government actively engaged in what covers a substantial portion o stage 8 of Stantons ten stages of genocide.
This boils down to "it's ok to murder innocents and oppress people and want to get rid of people because the other side murdered innocents and wants to get rid of you". Unless you're an utter hypocrite, you'd apply that to both sides. Yet this "logic" is meaningless if applied to both sides. By your own logic, Israelis deserve to get pushed around because some of them have murdered innocents and because some of them wants Israel to annex all the land (to be clear, despite your argument in favour of collective punishment: they don't; just like Palestinians don't deserve to be collectively punished for the actions of a few either). But if that is the case, you have no moral basis for your uproar over Hamas' actions - by your own logic you shouldn't give 0 shits about it.
Yet you clearly do. So clearly you're not applying that logic to both sides.
You're conveniently only applying it to the Palestinian population, whom you've elsewhere also implied collectively are untrustworthy and likely to try to take over any state who might invite them in.
Again, note how quick you are to be ok with collective suffering for Palestine for the actions of some, while you're up in arms about the suffering of a portion of Israelis for the actions of some.
Can you see how this deeply hypocritical and one-sided demonisation of Palestinians as a people, whom you have elsewhere implied are collectively untrustworthy and a risk of trying to take over, comes across as racist?
Because I certainly do.
I have no interest in continuing to indulge you in your ongoing demonisation of a population of five million people of whom the vast majority has done no wrong other than been born in what is effectively an open air prison where you, to quote you think they "deserve to get pushed around" despite the majority of them never having voted in any violently oppressive government (and that holds for the majority of Israelis too, though sadly not for the majority of the electorate - but just as I don't hold all Palestinians responsible for the actions of some, neither to dI hold all Israelis responsible for the actions of some; have a think about that).
And so I'll shortly be blocking you, so I don't have to deal with any more attempts at justifying oppression of innocents because of the crimes of some.
That "game" of which you speak is an appeal to privilege in its most obscene form: claiming an ancestral myth that allows you to impact extreme violence against other humans whose only crime is being born into the wrong bloodline.
It's 2023 CE out here but some cultures are pretending it's 2023 BCE
This sentence alone shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of the situation and the history that has led to it.
Jewish population in 1917 was 8%, but 1936 that was 28%. In 1948, during the Nakba, it jumped from 32% to 82%. Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine until the Zionist movement INTENTIONALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY took over, killed, burnt down, and destroyed not only men women and children, but every facet of Palestinian culture they could.
They shut Palestine out of negotiations and diplomatic channels, and ran straight-up propaganda campaigns in America to convince numbskulls like you who believe the slant they hear on Fox news about how Hamas are just terrorists.
Hamas actually attempted to be a legitimate government that played by the rules, as did the PLO. They were backstabbed, lied to, led on, and ignored by US, UN, Israel, Britain, etc.
You can have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people while condemning actions taken by militants. Nuance is possible here.
And yet the Palestinian population grows each year.
When you say 'destroying their neighbors culture' - are you talking about Israel or Palestine?
Clearly Palestine. They're the ones with a government they elected that literally put "destroy all Jews" in their founding charter.
Firstly, see “The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel”, David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012:
Not even the Israeli government or the Israeli Supreme Court agree with you that Israel has a legitimate claim to the territories beyond their internationally recognised borders. Maybe somebody here is talking about the entirety of Israel, but I am not, nor have I ever. If Israel were to withdraw to their borders, and Palestinian attacks still continue, then there'd be at least room for discussion of blame.
Until then, as long as Israel itself legally recognizes that it is an occupying power, there is none.
Secondly, people's experience of being oppressed does not recognize law. Irrespective of who has ownership of what, Israel is engaged in treating Gaza in particular as an Apartheid-style bantustan, and is committing crimes against humanity by doing so.
Whether or not you agree with the legal position on that, when someone places people in those conditions, then it is entirely on them when they hit back.
Blaming people for resisting gross abuse because you don't like how they do it when you've put them in a situation where they have no realistic opportunity to fight clean is victim-blaming.
Nice try. I've not argued it is okay for anyone. I've argued in some threads that unless you've provided a better alternative (and not suggested it; actually tried to make it come to pass), then like the rest of us you're not in a moral position to judge people for taking desperate steps to try to fight back.
That doesn't mean not feeling for the victims, because they had no power to end this either. It doesn't mean not thinking it's a horrible situation. It doesn't mean you can't get angry. It means resisting the urge to assign the blame to a people the vast majority of whom have been born into effective bondage under an apartheid regime for taking desperate and irrational actions to try to end a gross abuse they have no realistic power to change.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry... They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
They're genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don't care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they'll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
It's not like the position of the people of Gaza is going to improve...
Exactly. The same thing happened before again and again. The result was always the same. Death and misery for the people in Gaza.
The whole region needs to be put under supervision by an international committee and bring Israel's borders back to its original limits and give back the right to the people of Gaza and West Bank the right to their own land and allow them to exchange with other nations.
Which the Arabs voted against in the first place. They never wanted a Jewish state there and their rhetoric would suggest they still don't. The only difference is now there is one, and there has been for most of a century.
Ukraine: Hey guys! What are we talking about?
They have been pushed into a corner and kept on getting squeezed, so probably feel they have no other options (and might very well be right in light of what has happenned in the last decade).
Had Israel stopped expanding "colonates" and taking palestinian land, I doubt the likes of Hamas would have the internal support and manpower to do what they just did, but over the last several decades Bibi and his predecessors have been just dubbling down and announcing ever more anexation of land.
The massive difference in military power is also probably the reason for the kidnappings: I suspect it's a "strategy" to try and get the Israeli authorities to not just bomb the whole of Gaza.
Whilst I disagree with their methods I can see how over 70 years, given the trend in israeli politics and the lack of genuine and effective pushback from the international community against appartheid in Israel and the occupation, so many Palestineans have come to believe they have no other options than this kind of thing and personally I actually see no other option (even this they're doing now is not really an option, more like a lashing out of the desperate).
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (to much hate by now, too many assholes on both side whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US' and Europe's treatement of Israel as if it's a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it's more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all, effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie and the Palace Du Eliseé.
It's a shame because western countries were starting to recognize the apartheid situation in Israel and were starting to criticize it. I think had things gone a bit longer there would have been an intervention.
In any case, this whole thing is just sad. So many innocent lives are destroyed on both sides. And I sincerely think Israel, their government and the Jewish extremists are the root cause.
They are targeting civilians not the military. They want to cause so much pain and suffering the Israeli people will push their govt to cede demands of Hamas to stop the fighting, or emmigrate somewhere else