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11 arrested in protest at Sen. Bernie Sanders’s office over war in Ukraine (www.washingtonpost.com)

submitted 1 year ago by NightOwl@lemm.ee to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though? There were multiple attempts at peace that were sabotaged by either nazi paramilitaries or nato-member politicians. Remember when Zelensky traveled to the front to tell them to respect the ceasefire during Minsk 2 and they didn't? Maybe the people sabotaging peace would be less bold knowing the US isn't going to keep supplying arms.

[-] WaltJRimmer@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago

Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though?

When Russia is trying to commit genocide against Ukraine? Yes.

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Do you have a source for Russia doing genocide or are you just referring to the war?

[-] Lucky@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago

It's been widely reported by numerous nations and organizations. Search for "Russian genocide Ukraine" and you'll see plenty of credible sources

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

https://www.google.com/search?q=Russian+genocide+Ukraine&oq=Russian+genocide+Ukraine&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBBzk3OWowajeoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

So no then? Did you learn to critically read the news in school?

[-] Lucky@lemmy.ml 18 points 1 year ago

I'm wondering if you just posted the link without reading any results and are just doubling down to sound correct.

One of the first articles is AP news reporting UN backed human rights groups calling it genocide

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-human-rights-663b3a4ba24499d93f3f889e98f8b652

And an article by Time reporting the kidnapping of children being investigated as genocide, and that there is already enough evidence for the allegations

https://time.com/6262903/russia-ukraine-genocide-war-crimes/

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

Did you misread the AP link? The un group provides reports of war crimes, not genocide.

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

[removed by mod]

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

The links provided literally claim war crimes, they do not claim genocide.

Also Stalin did some terrible things but comparing him to Putin is ridiculous.

https://discomfiting.medium.com/holodomor-fact-or-fiction-17324ffe1d46

‚In addition, and despite some people (i.e., Norman Naimark) saying “The Soviet Union made no efforts to provide relief”, reports show that the Central Soviet Authorities sent hundreds of thousands of tonnes of food aid to Ukraine. In early February of 1933, Odessa and Dnepropetrovsk regions each received 3,300 tonnes of food aid. By the end of February, the Dnipropetrovsk region received 20,000 tonnes of food aid, Odessa received around 13,000 tonnes, and Kharkiv received almost 5,000 tonnes. Reports document that from February to June in the year of 1933, over 500,000 tonnes of food aid was sent to Ukraine. According to archived documents, Joseph Stalin himself, along with Molotov, personally took it upon themselves to scold Joseph Vareikis, First Secretary of the Voronezh Regional Committee of the CPSU, on March 31st of 1933 for his objection to sending 26,000 pounds of potatoes to the Donbass region of Ukraine. These behaviors including, but not limited to, sending food aid and at that personally intervening to ensure food aid is being given, is fairly odd or strange behavior for, as the “holodomor-genocide” campaigners would say, a “genocidal maniac who wanted to kill Ukrainians”. Truly, there was no reason for Stalin to go as far as personally intervening in that situation as he did to ensure food aid was sent to Ukraine if he was genuinely trying to create a famine to crush Ukraine.‘

You can also find archived docs of that time where the exact numbers and policies are described; it’s in Cyrillic though.

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush I did not compare who to Stalin directly, although reading what I did right I understand the misscommunication. Putin has expressed admiration for Stalin and the significant evidence that he would like to be like Stalin, but I agree that he is not quite there. He has expressed a wish to rebuild the Soviet Union and eliminate true democracy both in former Soviet Union states, in russia, and in the rest of the world. If you look at what he has done in the world, genocide is definitely in his wheelhouse.

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Putin might want to be like the idea of Stalin he has in his head, but not the actual "paperwork can wait, hunger cannot" revolutionary communist Stalin.

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush In Ukraine, Stalin created starvation.

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Literally not even liberal historians believe that. See: Conquest, Wheatcroft, Davies, Applebaum.

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

You're literally citing a channel that does stuff on ancient aliens and nazi ufos

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush Here then https://www.npr.org/2022/11/28/1139402378/ukraine-holodomor-famine-stalin-parallels-putin-russia-war

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Hoe about you actually go look at academics instead of citing corporate media

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush my history books Aldo mention the starvation devastation Stalin visited upon the Ukrainian population. It is a matter of historical record, witnessed and verified. What about it do you doubt?

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Not according to noted anti-communist historians like Conquest, Wheafcroft and Davies, even fucking Applebaum. Have you read something outside a highschool textbook?

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2023/10/13/council-of-europe-recognizes-soviet-era-starvation-of-millions-in-ukraine-as-genocide_6168547_143.html#

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush https://euromaidanpress.com/2017/10/04/why-holodomor-is-genocide-under-un-convention/

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush Yes. History is not my primary subject, but I have three degrees and trust the foremost experts on the subject. https://holodomor.ca/resources/documents-and-sources/documents/

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Having three degrees does not make you more knowledgeable on subjects you dont have knowledge in.

You obviously do not have the tools to identify the foremost experts. You have been terrible at identifying credible resources, youre last round has been: book review of a book by an author who has made comments that it isnt a genocide, an encyclopedia, a news article about a vote by a European parliament, and a list of English translated letters that don't show evidence it was a genocide. None are anywhere close to as credible as the well respected mainstream historians who studied this, thought it was a genocide, and then said "no, actually it wasn't" after the undemocratic dissolution of the USSR when more internal documents became available for them.

As for the vote you reference, that event was actually mentioned by this well respected western Jewish historian and activist in his article on holocaust trivialization:

https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory

You should read it so you understand the political implications of the claim you are making and how it connects to denying the holocaust.

[-] wbpeckham@techhub.social 1 points 11 months ago

@OurToothbrush Your points are disingenuous. At the time some of the original works that are quoted were written, the term genocide had not come into common use. That makes the point that some of the writers did not use the term rather meaningless. Had you read the articles and researched the background data cited you might have learned something. It is clear to me now that learning that something you have questioned has a strong factual basis is not exactly what you're looking for. You're looking for someone to reaffirm your misconceptions. I am not that guy, and that does not upset me although it seems to upset you. Since you're not interested in anything from me I will abandon this thread at this point, but I suggest you continue and widen your readings I challenge your preconceptions to get closer to the truth. I wish you the best of luck.

[-] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

At the time some of the original works that are quoted were written, the term genocide had not come into common use. That makes the point that some of the writers did not use the term rather meaningless.

What are you even talking about?

Had you read the articles and researched the background data cited you might have learned something.

I've literally read books on the subject written by people who hold a very negative opinion of the USSR. You have a smorgasbord of hastily assembled articles that you very evidently didn't read, or at least read critically, before citing.

You’re looking for someone to reaffirm your misconceptions. I am not that guy, and that does not upset me although it seems to upset you.

You are projecting.

Since you’re not interested in anything from me I will abandon this thread at this point,

I literally am interested in something from you, which is that you read and understand the cited article from a well respected Jewish holocaust historian and activist on why what youre doing is holocaust trivialization.

but I suggest you continue and widen your readings I challenge your preconceptions to get closer to the truth. I wish you the best of luck.

I literally engage with the mainstream anti-ussr western academic consensus on the subject, you want me to credulously engage with revived nazi propaganda that was used as justification for exterminating Jews by Ukrainian collaborators.