712
Why People Say Capitalism is Violent
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
712 points (100.0% liked)
Leftism
2204 readers
4 users here now
Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!
Rules:
- Absolutely no fascism, right wing extremism, genocide denial, etc.
- Unconditional support of authoritarians will not be tolerated
- Good faith discussion about ideologies is encouraged, but no sectarianism
- No brocialism/sexism
- No ableism
- No TERFs/ anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric
- No racism
- No trolling
- No insults, dunking, or personal attacks
- No posting of misinformation, disinformation, or fake news
- Mods have final say
Posting Expectations:
- Comics/memes/shitposts/propaganda are only allowed on weekends
- Try to avoid liberalism unless discussing electoral politics. Even then, try to focus on tactical agreement towards leftist goals
- Only one meta post seeking consensus per person per day
- Posts about a particular ideology are ok, but remember the rules above
- Remember that there is no “right way” to implement leftist theory. This rule does not prevent academic criticism.
- Try to avoid extremely sensitive topics unless approaching them with appropriate care for intersectionality. Use your best judgement, and be prepared to provide respectable sources when having these discussions. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source in these cases.
- Post titles must be meaningful and relevant, except on weekends
Sister Communities:
!abolition@slrpnk.net !antiwork@lemmy.world !antitrumpalliance@lemmy.world !breadtube@lemmy.world !climate@slrpnk.net !fuckcars@lemmy.world !iwwunion@lemmy.ml !leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com !leftymusic@lemmy.world !privacy@lemmy.world !socialistra@midwest.social !solarpunk@slrpnk.net Solarpunk memes !therightcantmeme@midwest.social !thepoliceproblem@lemmy.world !vuvuzelaiphone@lemmy.world !workingclasscalendar@lemmy.world !workreform@lemmy.world
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I think there's a simpler, more personal way to make this point. Here's a few thought experiments:
Imagine you work for a company that lays you off, even while doing enough stock buybacks and executive bonuses such that they could've paid your salary for 1000 years. After you get laid off, imagine what would happen if you just ignored them and continued doing your work.
Or, your landlord doesn't renew your lease because they think you're ugly and they don't want ugly people living in their building. Imagine what happens if you just stay, even if you keep sending the landlord their monthly rent on time.
Both of these situations end with armed, taxpayer-funded agents physically removing you from the premises by any means necessary; it is only the omnipresent threat of state violence that keeps capitalist control over their private property. We don't see the violence because we've been trained from an early age not just to accept it, but to not even see it.
^ This is the winner, right here. The crux, as it were.
Modern society always ultimately boils down, eventually, to might makes right... just with some extra steps.
I agree with you. That said, as humans, we're not yet evolved past defending territory we've chosen to live on. I think we still need "might" as an option for response, until we as a creator evolve further.
I don't know if it's possible to get rid of the final might destination on the continuum of responses to issues, but I think we can agree that the "extra steps" part between "an annoyance" and "possible danger to individuals and society" is extremely lacking and narrow.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
"Warfare is of vital importance to the state, it is a matter of life and death." -Sun Tzu.
A hundreds of years old warlord recognized this, it's a thought independent of economics. As long as there's more than one nation-state on this planet, might is always the end result, including defense from an aggressor.
The idea of inherent violence solely being a capitalist trait doesn't tell the whole truth because the need for might exists as long as there's power dynamic, which exists as long as there is govt.
Has anyone claimed that violence has never occurred outside a context of capitalism?
You think it's the govt that creates the power imbalances that results in violence? This is laughable... government is a result of violence that creates the power imbalance. Your point was reasonable until you conflated the two at the end.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
That’s not exclusive to capitalism .
True, but as an organization, protection of property seems to be their primary focus in more capital-centric societies.
I'm speaking from an admittedly limited experience, having lived in the US most of my life, so I welcome any other perspective or ideas.
I’m also from the US, and haven’t lived abroad. It did rise to my awareness in this exchange, having recently begun trying to process Bob Altemeyer’s The Authoritarians
Private property is the cause of the greatest social disparities, and protecting it is essential for our current systems to preserve themselves.
It should be no surprise that it is implicated in much of the greatest violence in our society.
I've seen a few solutions to the private property idea posited. I'll admit my biases, they made me uncomfortable, mainly because they cannot be the only piece of the machine altered.
For ex, there's a very large company near me that allows one to purchase land to build a house on, but that land is your family's for 99 years before ownership reverts to the corporation.
I can't really see the upside for any family, investing a lot of money into property that simply... Vanishes after a time. But that was one of the solutions I previously reviewed, no true ownership. Most of the other ideas were tweaks on that central idea.
Within the context of criticisms of capital, private property expresses a meaning that may be unexpected based strictly on a vernacular interpretation.
Whereas personal property refers to property that is used directly and personally by its owner, private property refers to property that is used by someone else, or another group, such that the owner may profit from asserting private control over such resources despite that they are useful for society or to others.
Businesses and rented properties are private property.
A house someone owns and occupies is personal property.
Very true, although I can't think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things like personal property etc and that's not necessarily anything specific to capitalism either.
Some very smart and imaginative anarchist philosophers have been working on exactly that for a very long time, from Mikhail Bakunin 200 years ago to more modern writers like Noam Chomsky or David Graeber. I think their work is worthwhile.
I haven't found Chomskys work to be convincing... it's always so... extra...
I don't think it's extra. Quite the opposite. If anything, it could use a little extra, because it's extremely dry and academic.
I think we used the slang version of extra differently is all.
Luckily solutions don't rely on your imagination.
If people who "can't think of a better way" would stop trying to impose their lack of imagination on the rest of us we would be able to progress.
There are smarter people than you or I in the world and they aren't the ones running things, the ones whispering, "You're nothing without me"
The first step of any abusive relationship is recognizing it's an abusive relationship. The second is to stop making excuses for your abuser and just leave, no matter what they claim the cost to be.
This is a terrible argument.
Is not an argument.
Well that's a problem.
Yes. For you.
I can no more save you from capitalism than I can save you from an abusive relationship.
The real tell is when I point it out and you get upset with me; classic response by the abused.
Are you intentionally trying to be off-putting?
Nope. Just comes naturally.
Yes and there are people who can’t leave, eg have no place to go, no means of survival, otherwise. Disabled, power differentiate between men/women/children, etc.
Yep. We're all stuck and only together can we get unstuck. Unionize. Vote. Share ideas. Help others escape the fog when they get stuck.
Unfortunately some don't want to be help. They'll defend their abusers with violence. They are the most dangerous. Flying monkey's doing the bidding of the powerful.
No shame when they wake though; capitalism is a mind fuck.
Doing all of it without voting probably would be just as good.
Voting is a critical step. Without voting you'll lose the ability to the the rest.
How is voting necessary for building unions and helping others?
Unions exist because they were voted into existence. They can be voted out of existence. The right has been working on it for decades
Are you referring to votes among workers in a company, or to participation in elections?
Elections.
No. Unions were never "voted into existence" through elections. It is not possible for a union to form due to government action. A union only forms from a conviction among workers to be organized, and to protect each other from those who would harm them.
The government can create laws to make unions ineffectual.
I don't have the time or patience to give a civic lesson on why voting in political elections is important for unionization.
I suggest you explore the topic on your own if you seek to not be confidently incorrect in life.
The government does antagonize unions, but their strength comes from within them, not from elections.
Again, unions were never "voted into existence".
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/collective-bargaining-rights
NLRB is not a union, nor a body that creates unions.
Workers create unions, by choose to unite, to organize themselves toward shares interests.
I feel you're arguing some pedantic point, possibly to dissuade voting at the political level or just because you enjoy the pedantry of this.
I can't think of a worse one.
This applies in general to copyright.
It's bullshit that exists solely by the power of the state. It only exists as long as we all agree it exists, ever person on the planet. It has only existed for a few centuries but no one can imagine a world without.
Capitalism is the same except worse since no one can agree on what capitalism means. The solution is always to capitalism harder.
This is a great comment. Thanks for this.
💖
Not playing devils advocate by choice: there are systems in place (at least in more democratic countries) that force the employer and the landlord to keep you if you havent done anything wrong.
At will employment is an american joke.
Still, paying more for the shareholders and CEOs than the actual work your water, food and transportation needs is insane.
The idea that I can buy my way around laws and others rights is disgusting to the core.