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submitted 1 year ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

California cannot ban gun owners from having detachable magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, a federal judge ruled Friday.

The decision from U.S. District Judge Roger Benitez won’t take effect immediately. California Attorney General Rob Bonta, a Democrat, has already filed a notice to appeal the ruling. The ban is likely to remain in effect while the case is still pending.

This is the second time Benitez has struck down California’s law banning certain types of magazines. The first time he struck it down — way back in 2017 — an appeals court ended up reversing his decision.

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[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There’s no right to magazine sizes. They have a right to guns. Give ‘em a bolt action with a 3+1 magazine. Still have a gun, right?

[-] Kalcifer@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago

There’s no right to magazine sizes. They have a right to guns.

The 2nd Amendment specifies "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". I would argue that to be able to functionally "bear arms", one must be able to be in possession of the means to operate those arms.

Give ‘em a bolt action with a 3+1 magazine. Still have a gun, right?

The 2nd Amendment does not say "the right of the people to keep and bear bolt-action rifles, shall not be infringed". Instead, it states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.".

[-] rahmad@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

But this already isn't true. Even if I could afford it, I can't buy an F16, anthrax or a nuclear warhead. So, isn't this just about where the line is being drawn? The line itself both already exists and doesn't seem to be contested.

[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago

You very much can buy an F16 assuming you can find one for sale, a civilian owned company already bought 29 of them from Israel (Same goes for fully functional tanks as long as you fill out the proper paperwork)

[-] rahmad@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

Technically true, but it needs to be non militarized, can't purchase the missile mounts (or the missiles etc.). My point stands.

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[-] Kalcifer@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I try to look at these examples from the perspective of the Non-Agression Principle -- to come to the conclusion that a specific technology must be kept from the public, it must be shown that that technology, by it's very nature of existence, infringes on the rights and freedoms of those around it. For example, if we look a nuclear warhead, as you mentioned, it could certainly be argued that it's private ownership would violate the NAP, as it's very existence is an indiscriminate threat to the life, and property of any proximal to it. A similar argument could be made for your other example of anthrax. Making a similar argument for an outright ban on the civilian ownership of a fighter-jet is much more difficult to justify, however. I would argue that it would, instead, be more logical to regulate, rather than prohibit, the civilian ownership of a fighter-jet, much in the same manner as the civilian ownership of any other typical aircraft.

It also should be noted that it entirely depends on wording/language. The 2nd Amendment specifically states "[...] the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.". One needs to have a precise definition for "bear", and "Arms". Perhaps it could be argued that an individual cannot "bear" a nuclear warhead. Perhaps "Arms" are only those used by the military, or other federal entities. I have no definite answer, but these are the sorts of things that one must consider.

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

3 round mag is a perfectly functional firearm. I own one. Works great.

Nobody’s infringing. When they wrote the amendment a single-fire cap and ball was perfectly acceptable as a firearm, should be good enough for today.

[-] BaldProphet@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

The Second Amendment doesn't say that it only applies to guns with 3-round magazines or muskets. It applies to all arms.

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[-] jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social 3 points 1 year ago

When they wrote the amendment a single-fire cap and ball was perfectly acceptable as a firearm, should be good enough for today.

Applied slightly differently - When they wrote the amendment, civilians had complete parity with military - should be the same today.

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[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago

Yes, and flintlocks are arms as well.

So give them access to those, and none other. So their 2nd amendment isn't infringed and the real deadly guns aren't being sold on the black market anymore.

[-] BaldProphet@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Show me where the Second Amendment states that it only applies to weapons available at its ratification. By that logic, the First Amendment only applies to forms of speech and communication that existed in 1791.

[-] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Every constitutional right has limits. There is no legal use of a gun that requires a gun capable of holding more than 6 rounds. More than 90% of self defense situations end with only 2-3 shots being fired. Long, drawn out gun fights with both sides firing 20-30 rounds simply don't happen in self defense situations. It's just a fiction from movies. You certainly don't need that many rounds to bring down a deer. What high capacity firearms do allow is criminals to maximize the damage they do in a short period of time.

[-] jeremy_sylvis@midwest.social 4 points 1 year ago

There is no legal use of a gun that requires a gun capable of holding more than 6 rounds.

Asserting a negative - bold strategy. I'd be interested in seeing your support for such a position.

I frequently legally use standard capacity magazines at the shooting range, though, so you may have a hard time here.

More than 90% of self defense situations end with only 2-3 shots being fired. Long, drawn out gun fights with both sides firing 20-30 rounds simply don’t happen in self defense situations. It’s just a fiction from movies.

Is this one of those Works Cited: Crack Pipe moments?

What high capacity firearms do allow is criminals to maximize the damage they do in a short period of time.

Ah - so you only care about mass shootings, the vast minority of firearm violence let alone homicide.

[-] Kalcifer@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Every constitutional right has limits.

Generally, I would be inclined to say yes, but things become more tricky when the constitutional right in question specifically states "Shall not be infringed". That being said, the limits in question could certainly lie within the definion of "Arms", and "bear".

There is no legal use of a gun that requires a gun capable of holding more than 6 rounds. More than 90% of self defense situations end with only 2-3 shots being fired. Long, drawn out gun fights with both sides firing 20-30 rounds simply don’t happen in self defense situations. It’s just a fiction from movies. You certainly don’t need that many rounds to bring down a deer.

Don't forget the original intent of the 2nd Amendment (I encourage you to read the Federalist Papers, to hear it striaght from the source) was to ensure that the people have the capability to resist their own government. Without a populace who believes in it, and will defend it with force if need be, a constitution is no more than a piece of paper, and a dream. Pay close attention to the wording of the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As well as how it would interract with what was stated in the declaration of independence:

[...] We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. [...]

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago

At the time the 2nd amendment was written they had muskets. Give them muskets.

[-] mctoasterson@reddthat.com 26 points 1 year ago

This is false. The Chambers gun, the Girandoni air rifle, and other "high capacity" repeating arms existed and were known to the framers of the Constitution.

[-] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 7 points 1 year ago
[-] willis936@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You realize "repeating arm" is essentially an AR-15? If you think the second amendment covers repeating arms like the AR-15 then what is your argument?

[-] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Cartridges didn't exist at the time of writing the 2nd. None of those guns used them and the authors of the 2nd had no idea such a thing would be developed. Rifling in firearms was a niche modification that required hand etching of the barrel and not commonly used nor available until the mid 19th century. The founding fathers had no conception of the reliability, accuracy, or speed of modern firearms.

[-] Kalcifer@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

The 2nd Amendment specifically says "the right to bear arms", not "the right to bear muskets".

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[-] BaldProphet@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

The 2nd Amendment doesn't specify any limitation on which arms it covers. Any weapon of any kind technically cannot be restricted because of the 2nd Amendment.

this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
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