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The proletarianization of tech workers
(doctorow.medium.com)
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this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2023
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Calling google workers proletariat is out of touch and borderline insulting to real working class.
3-month salary for a junior at google is what a "real" proletarian do in a full year, with addition of pension, stock options, benefits and bonuses
The line dividing working class from owning class is not their monthly salary. It's their relationship to capital. Do they work for their living, or do they own for their living?
same reason why being an athlete sucks -- even though you're making insane sums, the guys at the top are making far more than that, without putting their body on the line in any way whatsoever, indefinitely [whereas most players retire in their 30s, if they're lucky enough to have that long of a career]
Google engineers have capital, both invested and cash. Enough to start their own company if they wanted. They simply decide that living as googler is easier and more convenient
As long as their livelihood is dependent on labouring, they're working class. You should show some solidarity, rather than trying to divide the working class.
Even bourgeois class works. Even aristocrats... CEOs work.
Working is not what identifies proletariat.
I show solidarity, I have former colleagues working at google. They have all my solidarity, but they are not proletariat.
An average google engineer have more capital than most CEOs around the world.
They need to unionize, but they are not proletariat. My company is unionized, and we are not proletariat. There are unionized people owning multiple porsches. They are not proletariat. They simply find easier to live out of a good salary instead of the stress of having their own company
I didn't say they didn't work. I said that their livelihood isn't dependant on labouring.
I don't know what you gain out of gatekeeping the working class. The whole invention of the middle class has been a tool by the owning class to separate the working class.
I gain nothing other than I prefer politics to be well directed. Unions for tech jobs is clearly needed, and it is fine. As said I work for an unionized company.
Problem of putting together real working class and people like me, or Google engineers that are even in a better position, it's bad to orient policies that helps the real working class. I want everybody to enjoy the privileges of mine and google engineers. Putting as in the same bucket as deliveroo drivers is not good for society. As society, we need to really works on the struggle of real proletariat. As tech workers we are far from the priority. Tech workers need to unionize, yes, but they are not proletariat.
You keep saying that it's bad, but you haven't actually said why. Just this nebulous idea that standing together is somehow bad. Worker's rights benefit all workers. And the more people demanding them, the better. Even more so if the people demanding them have greater access to the resources needed to actually make a difference.
Never once has "divided we conquer" been true.
Tell me you know fuck all about unionization without telling me. Its all the same. We all, the working class, are advocating for the same fucking rights, boundaries, and protections. Deliveroo driver and tech employee both wanna go home at a reasonable time of night and sleep well knowing they can pay their bills.
Working at Google is not what it used to be 20 years ago. Not only would an average CEO be better off but there are plenty of other tech companies better to work at as well. Google engineers are salary workers not much different than any other
Those I know drive tesla and porsche, spend their long holidays traveling the world in expensive places, and have higher entry salaries than management in banks, with larger bonuses.
But apparently you guys know different engineers that struggle to survive... Fine with that. I might know only the lucky ones.
Otherwise we are all proletariat. Which is a news for me. I can finally complain with my "real proletarian" friends that I am as well a proletarian sharing the struggle, although I am definitely not.
Anyway, I will stop arguing. Apparently labeling google engineers as proletariat is an important topic in Lemmy, that users do with extra passion
You are the one who came in and insisted on specific labels. People disagree with you. Don't pretend this was our passion, it was yours.
Title of this post is literally the label I commented on: proletariat
I had spent 6 years fastidiously saving to have 20k in investments when I got hired by Google.
I was laid off in the wave 9 months later.
So no: I didn't (and don't) have enough money to just start my own company.
It's workers of the world unite not workers of the world only allow people who match your purity test. If you're not with us, you're part of the problem.
He said without a trace of irony.
Oh man, guy saved 3k a year, so rich /s
I love when you guys tell on yourselves lol
Jesus Christ, I guess the capitalists are still winning. Keep us fighting amongst ourselves so we never unite. What, exactly, would convince you to have solidarity with a person able to save 3k a year? To quit and work for less? To donate all non-living expenses to charity until their QOL is on par with yours?
Seriously though, there is no reason why labor at all levels can't work together to improve the system and demand better treatment across the board.
I hope the capitalists will always be winning. Capitalism is awesome.
Also the person you're talking about saved that money and invested it, making them a capitalist.
Class solidarity is nonsense.
I make a lot of money and live in a moderate COL area. It's almost certain my QOL is higher than theirs.
Fun fact: almost no one has the money to just start a business from scratch. That's why investors exist. Banks give out business loans all the time. That's capitalism, and that's why it's awesome.
Apologies, I didn't realize that your goal was to promote capitalism and defeat class solidarity.
Can't defeat something that isn't real.
You know it's not terribly difficult to save a couple hundred a month so long as you're not making minimum wage and budget for it
6 years saving 20k is legitimately the "skip lattes and cancel Netflix" levels of saving.
It's $270 a month extra.
Only saving $270 a month in NYC means 1 month of layoffs wipes out 6 months of saving in rent alone.
If you don't see the violence inherent in that system then you're fucking blind.
That took a hella weird twist lol
Difference in stock options as compensation for executives vs managers or the entire middle management layer is beyond insane. Like exponentially more.
They are petit bourgeoisie, they work for a living but their interests are aligned with capital as they're hired by the owners to extract as much surplus labor as they can and will often get bonuses tied to how well they do that, they're the overseer.
Software developers work and contribute to the company, they are the ones whose surplus labor is being extracted. They may get a larger chunk of the value they create but they don't get all of it. They are still in class conflict with the owners to get all the value they create. They're house slaves, treated better but still fundamentally against the owner.
No, I'd say that "financially independent" really means your dependent on capitalism, and that dependency will lead you to defend capitalism from any challenges. That is the bourgeois position and puts you against the proletariat. Their are other classes though besides proletariat and bourgeoisie with different relations to capital. Petite bourgeoisie are neither bourgeoisie nor proletariat but there interests align with the bourgeoisie/capital and against the proletariat, but they are not completely dependent on capitalism so they won't defend it as zealously. There is also the independent worker class who work for themselves outside a corporate structure, eg. An independent farmer, whose interests don't align with either the bourgeoisie or proletariat.
Some. But at firms of even modest size, though, a CEO receives ownership of capital, not just salary, as compensation.
Ah yes, just what the working class desperately needs, a gatekeeper.
I am not a gate keeper. I work in an unionized company in fintech. But I also recognize that calling me "proletarian" is detrimental for battles of real proletariat. Because I have a better salary than a medical doctor with a 5th of the stress. And I don't make near google salary. I have former colleagues who went to google... They are not absolutely struggling. They need to unionize? Surely. But let's keep it real, use words properly, because there are people in the current economy who are struggling. Proletariat means that the only "capital" owned by someone is their children. It evolved to mean working class, where only capital is ability to do a work.
Google engineers have real capital invested in stock market and pension funds, a great salary and benefits, transferable skills, and their biggest asset is their knowledge. They need to unionize only to fight back to mass lay offs, and have more saying on the company direction. Other than that they are doing pretty fine.
I work in tech, not Google but I am compensated similarly. The reason you are getting my downvotes is because you're missing the point. We worked our asses off to get where we are only to say we're "not struggling" anymore and have early retirement plans in place because we were thoughtful in our career choices and personal budget. That's a lot different from someone who had a retirement plan set from birth or doesn't need to work for a living.
Ultimately as long as tech workers continue to sell their labor then they are working class.
Than read again my comment. You are not proletariat. I am not proletariat. A manager at your bank is not proletariat. A doctor is not proletariat. We face issues of life, but we are absolutely privileged compared to proletariat
I grew up in one of the poorest region of Europe. To study I had to live in 2 of the worst ghettos of UK. There you see proletariat.
Anyone who call google engineers proletariat is as out of touch as a wall street ceo.
And I am surprised how lemmy can be this out of touch with the real word
Stop using the word "proletariat" when you clearly do not understand what it means and clearly have not read any of the theory from which the word was popularized
"Proletariat" != "impoverished"
I grew up reading gramsci... You are here claiming that modern version of petite bourgeois are proletariat. We need the "we are not the same" meme.
The difference between the people you call proletariat and the people you refuse to call proletariat is often luck. Luck is fickle and can swing both ways. A manager at a bank is absolutely proletariat, they've just been given a bit more money and told they're no longer proletariat. This is because it's way easier to keep workers and management at each other's throats than to have everyone target the real source of the "orders from above".
Obviously not everyone has the same situation and some people are more privileged than others. But there is a huge difference between someone who has to work everyday VS someone who doesn't. That doctor has to go to work, same as the programmer, or the manager. They all have unique lifestyles but they are all workers. They are the proletariat
Dog the shadeholders who let google pay you that high wage to convince people to join this profession also own the fucking overpriced housing and grocery stores that take it riiiight back.