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Luis Chamberlain sent out the modules changes today for the Linux 6.6 merge window. Most notable with the modules update is a change that better builds up the defenses against NVIDIA's proprietary kernel driver from using GPL-only symbols. Or in other words, bits that only true open-source drivers should be utilizing and not proprietary kernel drivers like NVIDIA's default Linux driver in respecting the original kernel code author's intent.

Back in 2020 when the original defense was added, NVIDIA recommended avoiding the Linux 5.9 for the time being. They ended up having a supported driver several weeks later. It will be interesting to see this time how long Linux 6.6+ thwarts their kernel driver.

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[-] lemann@lemmy.one 325 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Oh wow the comments on Phoronix for this one are bonkers.

From what I understand (because it wasn't clear to me from either of the TLDRs posted here) Nvidia's proprietary graphics driver has been calling parts of the kernel that they shouldn't be, because their driver is closed source.

These seem to be parts of the kernel that another company may own patents to, but has only licensed it to the kernel for free use with GPL open source code only, i.e. closed source/proprietary code is not allowed to use it.

Nvidia seems to have open sourced a tiny communication shim to try and bypass this restriction, so their closed source driver talks to the shim, and the shim talks to the restricted code in the kernel, that Nvidia does not have a license to use. This is a DMCA violation, hence why the Kernel devs are putting in preventions to block the shim, as far as I can see.

I don't understand the small minority of commenters there defending a la soulless corp Nvidia, who is blatantly in the wrong here. Some commenters have gone as far as to call the Linux kernel maintainers "zealots", would not be surprised if they are alts for Nvidia devs...

Edit: typo

[-] 520@kbin.social 92 points 2 years ago

Then isn't the correct solution to sue Nvidia?

It's a legal issue with a legal solution.

[-] Nucelar@kbin.social 129 points 2 years ago

You dont sue someone with deeper pockets than you.

[-] Zucca@sopuli.xyz 58 points 2 years ago

This is what's wrong in so many countries.

[-] Zardoz@lemmy.world 82 points 2 years ago

Yeah probably, but Nvidia can afford lawyers and delays for years. Much longer than any oss group could afford

[-] cobra89@beehaw.org 30 points 2 years ago

So you want the company that licensed the patents to the Linux kernel for open source use to have to sue Nvidia for wrongly using their code? You want the company to have to spend a bunch of money suing Nvidia and possibly lose which would open the flood gates to more closed source code leeching off the Linux kernel?

Yeah that's going to make them want to keep licensing their IP to the Linux Foundation (which they're probably doing for free).

Or the maintainers can just submit a fairly simple patch to ensure that the kernel and the patents are being respected. Do you really think the first approach is the way to go?

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[-] Tetsuo@jlai.lu 74 points 2 years ago

Just a perspective on why people would support NVIDIA here:

  • They don't believe in copyright law so they don't mind whoever infringe on them. Especially since here it would make the proprietary driver work better.

  • They do care about copyright law but think having a working driver outweighs respecting them.

Not my opinion here just saying that for some people usability trumps any other aspects.

[-] bear@slrpnk.net 100 points 2 years ago

They don't believe in copyright law so they don't mind whoever infringe on them. Especially since here it would make the proprietary driver work better.

I don't believe in copyright law, but I especially don't believe in partially enforced copyright law. Nvidia doesn't get to use copyright to protect their proprietary code while infringing on the copyright of FOSS.

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[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 7 points 2 years ago

Good read. I think the root is simply, don’t care about the rights of others if it is going to cost them something personally.

[-] RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml 28 points 2 years ago

I don’t understand the small minority of commenters there defending a la soulless corp Nvidia, who is blatantly in the wrong here.

They think they're gonna get a free 4090 in the mail any day now.

[-] isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca 27 points 2 years ago

Phoronix comments are always wild

[-] LSlowmotion@lemm.ee 13 points 2 years ago

Remind me of those who supports Red Hat for blocking sources and telling those who downstreams "code thief with no contribution to open source" lol.

[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 16 points 2 years ago

I did not “support” Red Hat but I was pretty vocally in opposition to most of the reaction to it. I found the willful inaccuracy and even flagrant dishonestly from the “community” close to disgusting at times. So, you may be including people like me in your comment.

In this case, it seems very straight-forward that NVIDIA is in the wrong. Not just ethically but legally as well.

My own read is that some of the people slamming Red Hat are defending NVIDIA now. Coming away from that experience, I the over-arching principle that many adhere to most is simply whatever is best for them. Red Hat was wrong because people felt entitled to something. The kernel devs are wrong ( and NVIDIA right ) because people feel entitled to something.

[-] mackwinston@feddit.uk 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ

"I'm also very happy to point out that nVidia has been the worst [...] so nVidia, "fuck you!""

[-] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 11 points 2 years ago

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[-] knexcar@kbin.social 18 points 2 years ago

Because we don’t care about open source drama, we want an operating system that just works™ with our existing graphics cards and doesn’t get in the way of gaming.

[-] fluxion@lemmy.world 75 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Then let Nvidia deal with this drama of their own making. Linux works as intended.

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[-] odium@programming.dev 62 points 2 years ago

From a legal perspective, nvidia has been illegally bypassing a software license by exploiting a loophole. Linux devs fixed the loophole.

I don't see why I would be annoyed at Linux devs in these circumstances.

[-] breakingcups@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago

Then go install Windows.

[-] shertson@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago

If that is the case, then you should be very happy to leave Linux for a proprietary OS that Nvidia works on and properly supports.

[-] priapus@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 years ago

It's not going to effect 99% of users. Nvidia will update it as they have in the past. The large majority of distros use stable kernels by default, and it will be fixed before this makes it to one. You're getting upset over something completely irrelevant to you.

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[-] Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 2 years ago

This thing exists.

But you have to pay for it.

Otherwise you might have to deal with the wishes of the people you aren’t paying.

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[-] UltraFiestaMango@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 years ago

But why is it a problem if they call on parts of the kernal they shouldn't? is it just a privacy concern, does it also impact performance? i don't understand

[-] priapus@sh.itjust.works 56 points 2 years ago

As the commenter stated, it is a copyright issue. Nvidia is not allowed to use this code in a proprietary driver.

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[-] patatahooligan@lemmy.world 37 points 2 years ago

It is copyright infringement. Nvidia (and everyone writing kernel modules) has to choose between:

  • using the GPL-covered parts of the kernel interface and sharing their own source code under the GPL (a free software license)
  • not using the GPL-covered parts of the kernel interface

Remember that the kernel is maintained by volunteers and by engineers funded by/working for many companies, including Nvidia's direct competitors, and Nvidia is worth billions of dollars. Nvidia is incredibly obnoxious to infringe on the kernel's copyright. To me it is 100% the appropriate response to show them zero tolerance for their copyright infringement.

[-] fubo@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

To expand a bit:

The GPL-only symbols restriction is there for the benefit of proprietary developers. It ensures that their work doesn't become a "derivative work" of the kernel's internals, by sticking to using only the published and documented interfaces. Using published APIs doesn't make your work a legally derivative work of the system behind those APIs (i.e. the kernel).

If your code needs to mess around in the kernel internals, it is very likely a derivative work of the kernel; which means you need the permission of the kernel authors if you want to publish that code legally.

The only terms under which the kernel authors grant that permission are the terms of the GPL.

By circumventing the GPL-only symbols restriction, Nvidia is demonstrating that their driver code needs to mess with kernel internals, not just the published APIs. And that means that it probably is a derivative work of the kernel. Which, in turn, means that those drivers must be published under the GPL in order to avoid violating the kernel copyrights.

Basically: Linus drew a line in the sand and said "As long as you don't step over this line, you're not pirating the kernel by releasing proprietary drivers." And Nvidia stepped over that line.

[-] cobra89@beehaw.org 10 points 2 years ago

Because the license for the patents that the Linux kernel is utilizing says that the code utilizing those patents must be open source. So therefore Nvidia is accessing those parts of the kernel illegally and against the license the Linux Foundation has. The Linux Foundation could lose the rights to use those patents if they're not respecting the license.

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[-] lckdscl@whiskers.bim.boats 12 points 2 years ago

Agree with your analysis, just pointing out that Phoronix forums have always been like this, or at least the tendency is to insult each other. Their culture is more toxic than any other Linux forums I've seen, maybe besides /g/.

[-] 7u5k3n@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

I need to upgrade my computer soon.... this crap makes me not want to go Nvidia again. (Running a looooong in the tooth 1060.)

[-] DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 2 years ago

Go ahead, I just ordered a new build specifically with a non-Nvidia card for the same reasons.

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this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2023
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