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Stop the timeline, I want to get off
(lemmy.dbzer0.com)
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The white supremacist violence that took place in Jacksonville this past weekend has me doing some research.
The source of this quote is here, from another incident in Florida:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/attempted-homicide-richard-spencer-speech-gainesville-florida_n_59ea766ae4b0958c468228ff
Does anyone have any ideas how to make improvements in the sorry state of white America? I say this as a white man. All the solutions I conceive are complicated and far fetched — like developing communities based on love and respect not money and subjugation.
I would suggest not starting with the premise that the problem is "White America." These folks don't speak for White people, not even remotely, and buying into that falsehood is exactly what they want.
I'm not going to say it any better than MLK, so I'll just leave the link here.
White America is the problem. Sure, moderate white Americans are so much less terrible than outright racists, but a complacent majority that is happy to reap the benefits of an unjust system, simply because it is the comfortable path, is one of the major reasons why it's so hard to make movement against those racists.
Labeling an entire group of people “the problem,” based on a superficial demographic trait is prejudiced and unhelpful. You often alienate the very people you want help from. Rather than using a superficial trait that has nothing inherently to do with the problem, target the problem itself: the problematic ideology.
I don’t care to debate this, tbh. If you really think white people are the problem you’re just being racist too, and I have no patience for that.
You're absolutely right, I'm sorry. Let me try that again without mentioning race, in a discussion about race inequality.
Now, let me check my notes on who benefits from an injust system of racism in America...
"white America" is another description for white supremacy in the US. What you're recommending is to dismantle systems of oppression without dismantling white supremacy. I hope you can see how that's a problem without me explaining it.
Then say the problem is White supremacy. Saying the problem is White America sounds far too much like saying the problem is White Americans, especially to someone who's not educated on racial issues in the same way you are.
Let's go back to that MLK quote then.
Uh... do you wanna elaborate on what you mean there? Because what I'm inferring seems kinda bad and I don't wanna put words in your mouth.
You’re apparently under the delusion that all White Americans are White supremacists, which—as I said to the other respondent—simply means you’re racist.
I’m always amazed anti-White racists can’t work out they’re making the same mistakes every other racist is making. You’ve actually deluded yourselves into thinking you can’t be racist against White people. How you fail to grasp such a simple concept as judging an entire group of people based on their skin color, while simultaneously claiming you understand it better than anyone else is beyond me.
Can you do me a favor and scroll back to the top of the thread and remember how the conversation started? Invoking Godwin's here about MLK isn't really the point you think it is.
Require public middle schools to include mandatory courses or seminars about empathy, emotional wellbeing, and basic social skills.
or
Put them with the other white-supremacists on a square of land and let them be an independent territory, on the condition that anyone who wants to leave must be allowed to leave to the US. And point and laugh as they realize only white men would want to live in a society that arbitrarily puts white men at the top.
or
Kindly ask the media to stop using the same 5 "scary SJWs who want to kill all men!!!!" to convince half the country that they are being persecuted by all women and minorities everywhere.
(disclaimer: results may vary.)
I was sitting in a McDonalds restaurant in the late morning on a weekday in the Midwest USA. There was a group of older white men drinking coffee and having discussions. I wasn't really following their conversation, but one man made one of the stupidest and out-of-touch statements I've heard in months. Its a turn of phrase that sounds like he heard it somewhere else and was parroting it like it was clever. It isn't, of course.
It was this: "We spend so much effort trying not to offend anyone anymore. Why can't we just get back to just offending everyone?"
This man was an older version of the OP; white, cis-gendered male. He's been the recipient of privilege his entire life any may not even be aware of what others go through or think that those that do "deserve it". He doesn't get that "Why can't we just get back to just offending everyone?" was when white males like himself were immune to being criticized in society for their gender and skin color while every group that wasn't white and male was on the receiving end of bigotry and misogyny. Of course he wants to go back to that, where he can insult and belittle others others without any consequences.
I have no idea why these people can step outside of themselves for even a short time to listen to the experiences of others, and put themselves in their place to feel what it would feel like to be on the receiving end, to experience institutional racism and misogyny limiting what they can do in life in our society. I don't know how these old white men, who many claim to be instilled with a strong sense of justice, and see their fellow citizens being treated differently by our society and our justice system.
How can these people possibly become better versions of themselves when their identity is built on the premise that they are intrinsically better than other people just because of their male genitalia and lack of skin pigmentation?
They think justice is them (and people they like) winning. That's what they believe. Values and morals are justifications for what they do, not reasons to do things.
That's why they will never understand when you try to explain how they are not actually following their values, or heros, or religion. Their main idea is that they are correct and right. It's not a complicated position but it's very human.
If you don't think like that, congratulations. You're a better person. But that doesn't mean you'll be able to convince them that they're wrong.
I mean, it's obviously wrong to lash out to do the opposite of what people order of you, yet I feel like in minor ways we've all done that to some degree. I also can't think of any close group of friends that hasn't picked out some kind of group that they are okay with disparaging - be it local drivers, voters of a political party, people playing a certain game, etc. If it seems like the goal for happiness is to just forbid any externally focused negativity, it's not hard to see why that doesn't seem appealing. People always have gripes, and want to express them.
You even see this with little kids. They do a thousand mean/bad things parents hate because they want to do things. The biggest tip I think early parents need is to stop leading every sentence with "Don't ____!" - instead try to invent things that they can do that the parents are okay with. "Hey, count how many white cars are on the road." "Hey, can you fill this coloring book using only wrong colors", etc. They just want to figure out a 'space' that they're not going to be shot down for inventiveness.
The key, and maybe this is something those coffee drinkers don't understand and could even plausibly be taught, is to focus any gripes towards thoughts and actions of others, never identities. If you asked extremely bigoted people whether "people in wheelchairs are stupid", I would bet a fair number of them would recoil and tell you to shove off, because even they know no one asks to be in a wheelchair. But it's less clear to them why someone might end up a junkie on drugs, or illegally immigrating, or what multiple reasons there might be for links between arrest rate and skin color.
I mean, you may have answered your own question with the "I have no idea" part. If you can't envision an even halfway possible reason for the life they've lead, bringing them to that point they make that statement, you have your own answer how it's hard to put yourself in others' shoes.
At the risk of explaining the joke, you're not far off. Become an organizer at your workplace/apartment complex/community. Creating working class solidarity is the best way to fight against fascism. If you have extra time on your hands, you can volunteer at your local polling place, join a local group of antifascists that infiltrate fascist communities, or lobby government to make changes like making it easier to vote. There's a lot of options, but none of them are particularly easy to accomplish.
Tell me more about how solidarity isn't the answer to fight fascism.
It's really hard to found any kind of movement that aims to respect and accept "cis-gendered, white, straight men". Because, factually and in the public eye, those people just generally need less help than various minorities that each get oppressed.
But for any individual person, it's horribly demeaning to come home from a hard day at work not making enough to buy the PlayStation you want, aching for someone to talk to, and all the support groups out there are for "Black Engineers of America", or "Help for Transgenders afraid to come out to their parents". I say that as someone who absolutely respects and values the benefit those groups bring. Keep in mind: People looking in from the outside of those orgs probably also have a hard time seeing or understanding the amount of societal pain people have just by being in those minority groups, before and after those organizations started forming.
The boringly sad way of putting it is, if you are white, cis-gendered, male, and straight, (in short, the "majority"), and you happen to not have a talent that makes you unique, you literally can't finish the sentence "I am PROUD to be ____" without coming across as a bit of a demon in some people's eyes.
My post is longer than it should be for a meme comment, but I do want to end on a positive / plan of action: At the very least, one step is acknowledgment, and that never has to come at the cost of those minority groups - each of whom need their own, often more urgent help. A big one I'd want is to completely shut down the "male negativity" that's kinda formed in media, as a backlashing response to the "women negativity" in terrible old media. We often say we want men to open up and be more emotional, yet it's still played for laughs on TV.
I tried to tag you in my reply below but I'm not sure if I did it right. I wrote TWO long posts underneath @cubedsteaks -- and YOU said your post was longer than it should be! If you don't have time to read my serialized thoughts below, just know that I appreciated your response.
If you see a nazi punch them in the fucking face.
Or if they identify as a nazi using an easilly removable pin, give them something that can't be taken off.
Fixing something difficult and complex is always harder than breaking it more.
How do we fix white america? I don’t know. But I know that teaching each other that it’s not white vs black, but it’s not racist vs racist and that as white people we’re gonna have to prove which side we’re on regularly. Similar with every other axis of oppression.
I think we also have to remember that the fascists are actively recruiting these boys. Antifascists need to counter that. Idk how, but we need to find out. Antifascism is at its best when it’s like the rainbow coalition. We all understand who the real enemy is: fascists.
Yes. The murderer on Saturday is said to have had a swastika drawn on his gun and a Rhodesian army patch on his clothing. As bad as Florida schools are he didn’t learn to like those things in school. He was groomed, most likely online. The conservative reactions seek to identify the fault as squarely within the individual — although not to the extent that they will support mental health screening prior to gun purchases. In other words, not to any meaningful extent. The only consequence a conservative politician supports is vitriolic tough talk for the cameras.
Remember when Muslims were socially pressured to prove they weren't terrorists by condeming the terrorists, following 9/11?
I have no problem with condemning racism, seeing as it is evil, but we should maintain an "innocent until proven guilty" policy.
Nazis are the ultimate intersectional mobaliser
Absolutely. Even if you’re a cishet white man who fits all the things they like fascists are still bad for you. They’ll throw you into battle or recruit you to do atrocities or just tank the economy and ensure you have to follow lockstep with their rule while hurting everyone who’s different
Nothing can be done because it's too profitable and too essential to the sham of a government we have. We all play our parts just as we're supposed to.
I understand that you need hope to navigate this awful world. I don't. I see this for what it is; a lost cause.
Get back to me when those politicians start doing what you think needs to be done. I'll wait.
End stochastic terrorism by de-platforming the alt-right pipeline. These shoots all listen to the same pundits, go to the same messageboards. We can debate them and debunk their theories, which does work somewhat, ultimately I think disrupting these platforms is the answer.
Before that it was John Birch Society spreading out magazines and having meetings in homes like Avon. I do agree the internet, mainstream radio, and TV helped a lot too. Cutting down access to not yet radicalized people I do think would help. People used to think birchers were crazy, even on the right. Up until they basically transformed into the Tea Party. (Funded a lot by Kochs, sons of one of the original Birchers).
Oh yea, you're right.