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safe space
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2023
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No, the meme is accurate. The owners of beehaw are so obsessed with protecting their users from possible harassment that they are willing to put them in a prison with no communication with most of the outside world (lemmy.world has the most active users and sh.itjust.works is in top 5).
And the users on beehaw are free to create accounts on other instances if they want. Your prison metaphor is a bad one.
I'll be honest: that's a shitty way of handling this. Making 20 accounts to view content from 20 different instances that don't want to cooperate with one another defeats the purpose of all of this. If that's the plan, the Lemmyverse or whatever it's called is dead on arrival.
The plan is to refederate after Lemmy moderation tools catch up to the needs of Beehaw.org.
Seems reasonable to me?
It's just temporary, primarily due to lemmy having very poor moderation tools. Once moderation tools improves, beehaw mods should be able to handle refederating.
Just use small instances with good moderation policies.
They are restricting their users freedom. But yes the users are free to leave.
And they can leave beehaw on a full-time basis. Let the admins decide how they want to run their instances, and if users don't like it, they can hop over to another. This is all a part of how decentralization is supposed to work. Of course it's messy and inconsistent.
There are plenty of beehaw users who agreed with defederation. After all, they had to essentially write an essay to be allowed in at all. I'm not surprised there are users who are okay with defederating. And again, the ones who aren't are free to make accounts on instances with open door policies, like shit or world. Beehaw admins probably prefer it that way anyway.
Did those users agree after the fact or were they asked first? If there was a vote and that's what their users choose then I take back what I said. My impression was that there wasn't any vote.
You seem to be thinking of instances like ISPs or something.
Instances are closer related to a house holding multiple parties in multiple rooms. People from other houses are welcome to join, but with the lack of moderation tools, if people from your house act like fools or assholes don't be surprised when your house is collectively barred.
The only reason people are so upset is because they have misframed what Lemmy is in their heads as some libertarian wet dream with no authority whatever. There is an authority. It is each instance admin.
If I create an email service, a lot of people sign up to use it and after some time I tell them I will no longer deliver emails to gmail.com, would that be alright?
That happens all the time with spam mail servers which is exactly the same problem beehaw was having. If you set up an email service that hosts spam bots and do nothing about it then the other email services will start blocking it.
Beehaw was being spamed with dick pics and other shit that was actively malicious. They could ban those profiles but then those users just went and made new profiles on lemmy.world or one of the other instances with open signup. Right now Lemmy has limited moderation tools so the only way to perminantly "ban" those users is to defederate with the instances that keep hosting them. They plan to refederate with those instances once better tools are in place to perminantly block users like that.
It would be more similar to you blocking gmail.com from sending you messagess because thier users keep flooding your server with spam.
This happens every day. Unfortunately a small group of assholes ruined it for all of us until tools are available to deal with them.
I don't know what kind of features they need, but I could have helped make the tools and I'm sure many other people would be willing to help if they only asked.
Isn't this exactly how gmail treats a LOT of other email services? Email is a mess of spam and whitelists and is barely usable as a result, partially because there is no human moderation.
You might be right about that. I hate email. I was just giving an example of providing a service that people rely on, then when a problem occurs cutting it off from the outside world instead of trying to fix it.
Why would you do that?
Gmail users send a lot of hateful messages so I decide to cut off all communications with them.
This is a ridiculous comparison. E-Mail is a standard for communication. Lemmy is a social media. This is absurd. Social media needs moderation.
How come no other instance had to defederate? Especially ones that are bigger than beehaw.
Because they have different moderation guidelines and goals.
I have a BeeHaw account and a lemmy.world account. I'm not imprisoned lol, it's the Internet, not some.private island. Nothing's stopping anyone from browsing or joining any of these communities
People's freedoms were limited for no good reason. But you are right that they can leave. Users can leave Reddit too.
Freedoms were not limited. Any user can still go apply for a beehaw account if they want one. Any beehaw user can open an account on any other instance they want. People can still talk, people can still be heard.
No one is entitled to force others to listen to what they say. Beehaw's owner pays for their server. It's their own private instance. They can determine the rules that accounts that use or federate with their instance have to follow, and everyone has the freedom to associate with beehaw if they want.
Finally, beehaw isn't a government, taking an action to limit the freedoms of their citizens. In most modern, western societies, that is between governments and their people. In nearly every similar structure, those people do not have the same "rights" in regards to private businesses or private organizations.
Don't believe me? Go into a grocery store and start screaming obscenities at fellow customers and see how long it takes you to be forcibly removed and banned from the premises. And that won't be your freedoms being limited, either. It will be that private business deciding that you're not allowed to associate with them any longer.
This is no different. The people who run beehaw can choose how to run their space. It's their money they pay for the service with. We don't get to tell them how to spend it. Their users and donors have a say in it, and if their users and donors don't like how the operators respond to their expectations, then they won't have users and donors. That's for them to decide.
People act like they're entitled to an audience with beehaw users, and they simply aren't. It's that easy. You can't just go into your neighbor's house and demand they listen to what you have to say. They can, and will, boot your ass to the curb, or worse, as soon as they're tired of listening. I'm not sure why this is so hard for some people to understand.
fucking exactly lmao
people from other instances seem to have felt entitled to Beehaw's communities and are acting like something was stolen from them when they'd never owned it to begin with
They could also simply apply for an account on lemmy.world, if they wanted. I hear the bar is pretty low, and the users of beehaw were indirectly notified of this, too. And the inconvenience of having to create a second account is almost nonexistent.
Users are people capable of making their own choices. It they don't like the moderation approach they can just make a new account elsewhere. You don't get to tell them what they like.
Yes, how dare I criticize someone's actions and the impact they have on our community.
It is literally their community. They host it. They moderate it.
"Lemmy" is not a community, it is a loose federation of instances that can choose not to federate with other instances.
Your outrage seems based on "HOW DARE THEY BLOCK US FROM OUR COMMUNITY", but it was never yours. You were merely allowed to use it
It hurts both their users and us. The federation is now more divided for no good reason.
If they wanted to create a private community from the start that would be perfectly fine. But they let people sign up and create big communities that everyone else now relies on and then defederated. Isn't that a bit irresponsible?
Isn't it a bit irresponsible to let bigoted trolls post a lot of dick pics? Because that's what was going on. You're talking about [theoretical problems], but the mods of Beehaw made a (possibly flawed) call during an emerging situation to avoid a lot of [actually existing problems].
Are you saying that the only possible actions are to allow trolls or defederate? It seems to me that there are also other, better solutions. If their decision was flawed, we should be able to criticize it.
Lemmy seems to be fairly basic and limited currently when it comes to moderation, especially across instances.
I haven't seen them asking the community to make better tools (I could have helped) or with moderation.
I don't think that's a realistic solution right now so it makes sense they wouldn't try to do that. Scrambling to come up with a bunch of custom features using random volunteers is not likely to go well and won't solve the problem within a suitable timeline. They are definitely talking about what kind of improvements they want and are coordinating with the admins of the other instances so everyone is on the same page. From everything I've seen everyone involved is doing the best they can and trying to work towards improving Lemmy. That's great you can help with dev work, it looks like there's going to be a whole bunch of things to do so I'd encourage you to check out the Lemmy github and see where you can help out.
they're literally doing that right now
are they supposed to just sit and let trolls keep coming in while they do it????
I'm saying they could have asked for help and let us solve the issue together instead of cutting their users off from the outside world. No other instance had to defederate.
That argument is circular nonsense.
They couldn't have realized the full scope of the lack of mod tools until someone made it a problem.
So your argument seems to be based on Beehaw being at fault for not being able to see the future?
The fact that other instances aren't moderated to the same standard means that Beehaw is at fault?
Is it really so hard to get more moderators and ask for help with developing the tools?
Are you saying all instances should be so obsessed with protecting users from possible harassment as to cut off their communication with the outside world without even asking them first?
It doesn't matter now though. The damage they did matters less and less each day as other instances are getting more and more users. But even if they federate again, we should probably never post on their communities in case they do this again in the future.
they're literally doing that right now
are they supposed to just sit and let trolls keep coming in while they do it????
No, that is moderation.
These big communities were formed by people who may or may not have understood what federation means. This is the inherent implication that comes with subscribing to a community that is located on a separate instance. As long as the moderation tools are insufficient to stop rampant trolling, this is the only real reaction the instances have available If they are not willing to add a whole bunch of moderators.
Irresponsible is visiting other instances and not recognizing that what you post also reflects on your instance.
I see, you see Lemmy as being one big community, rather than separate communities that can interact with each other
so you see defederating as like locking away a part of the community, rather than a community deciding to lock up for a bit
The community didn't decide this as far as I know. It was the owners who did it and informed their community after the fact. If there was some kind of vote and I missed it, let me know.
fucking lmao
as if they can'f make an account on another instance
y'all are just hurt because you think you're being rejected and insulted by this, when they made it clear that it wasn't personal or permanent
So that makes it right to cut people off from the outside world without asking them first? Do you want things like this to keep happening? Or should we maybe try other solutions first? Somehow other instances didn't have to defederate, so maybe it's not necessary?
nobody is cut off, holy shit
this is not as big of a deal as you're making it
people can make new accounts on freer instances in seconds