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[-] arctanthrope@lemmy.world 146 points 1 month ago

I see the point, but I don't think intellectual elitism is the same as anti-anti-intellectualism. I think intellectual elitism creates a sense of alienation from science that in fact leads to anti-intellectualism. "I have more specialized knowledge than you" is not the same as "I'm better than you," and acknowledging that is the solution

[-] EyIchFragDochNur@lemmy.world 68 points 1 month ago

I think they're joking about the elitism part. People just need to stop to listen to idiots

[-] arctanthrope@lemmy.world 30 points 1 month ago

completely tangential, but this is actually an interesting grammatical point. I'm guessing you're German by your username; "stop to listen to idiots" would mean "aufhören, um Idioten zuzuhören." "aufhören Idioten zuzuhören" would be "stop listening to idiots." it's interesting because "to [verb]" and "[verb]ing" are often interchangeable, but in this case they actually mean the opposite

[-] EyIchFragDochNur@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Richtig, danke.

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago

I understood absolutely zero of the German, but for other non native English speakers who didn't pick up on the issue here:

The usual phrase here would be "stop listening to idiots". The sentence that was used, "stop to listen to idiots" means the contrary, that you'll stop what you're doing so that you can listen to what the idiot has to say.

Which is a valid option, but an ill advised one.

[-] luciferofastora@feddit.org 9 points 1 month ago

For the non-Germans who want to know the source of the confusion: It's basically the same sentence structure in German meaning something different than in English.

to has distinct meanings in "I want to listen to them" and "you should stop to listen to them". In the first sentence, it's effectively an article for the activity "listen to them". In the second sentence, it implies an intent, which could be made explicit like "stop in order to listen to me".

English uses the progressive ("stop listening") to disambiguate with words like stop. German instead uses an additional preposition "um" for the intent meaning of to.

(In this case, the meaning difference between "interrupting something" and "stop for good" also has different words, "anhalten" and "aufhören").

Word for word, "Aufhören zuzuhören" would mean "stop to listen", but actually means "stop listening" while "stop to listen" would be correctly translated as "anhalten, um zuzuhören".

[-] brbposting@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

For the non-Germans who want to know the source of the confusion

🙋‍♂️ how’d you know we were here?!

[-] luciferofastora@feddit.org 3 points 1 month ago

I have a Spinnie-sense for when people are confused about our language, but whether you were curious was a lucky guess. Volltreffer ("Full hit"; bullseye), it seems.

[-] DandomRude@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

I’m afraid, unfortunately, that it is precisely the idea that anyone could understand everything without much effort that makes people so susceptible to utter nonsense.

This also gives rise to the impression that so-called intellectual elites are nothing more than charlatans who want to pull the wool over the public’s eyes with their incomprehensible "intellectual secret language." So people end up looking to idiots who, while having not the slightest clue about the subject, explain things in a way that anyone can follow—even without knowing anything about it themselves—or at least believe they understand all the "nonsense" those snobby scientists are spouting.

In my view, this effect—which definitely exists—also clearly reveals who is primarily responsible for it: namely, the operators of the major social media platforms, all of whom are billionaires that have a genuine interest in ensuring that the masses allow themselves to be duped.

If that were not the cause, this effect would have to occur particularly among the financial elite as well, and people would be asking en masse whether their vast power might be unjustified—yet this does not seem to be the case at all among the general public.

This in turn gives rise to the schizophrenic state whose effects we are witnessing today: People distrust science, but they do not question the goals pursued, for example, by climate change deniers, who by no means came up with their narratives on their own, but are well paid to spread them as widely as possible.

I fear that this problem could only be solved by significantly reducing the influence of billionaires on public opinion—but in our system, where they wield almost unrestricted power, this unfortunately seems virtually impossible.

[-] Signtist@bookwyr.me 17 points 1 month ago

The issue is that anti-intellectualists think that the very concept of knowing more than them about any given topic is elitism.

My conspiracy theorist mom would go on and on about how her spending an afternoon googling something put her ideas at a higher level than someone who got a degree studying it, and if I agreed with the person with the degree, then I was an idiot for not following her. She thought that right up until she died trying to treat her cancer with quack therapies.

Regardless of whether we frame it as "I'm better than you because I know more than you," the anti-intellectualists will still be framing it as "I'm better than you because my 'gut feeling' knows more than you." It's a competition to them, not because someone told them they were lesser, but because they already believed they were greater.

[-] FoxtrotDeltaTango@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Well at least your anti vaccine mom is dead

There are still way too many people like her who exist unfortunately

[-] brbposting@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago

IDK if we wanna go that aggressive if the parent commenter didn’t exactly go that far first

[-] FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

I will.

Every dead antivaxxer makes the world a slightly better place

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago

My mom is on that path, but still alive. She won't drink regular tap water because she's scared of fluoride. She no longer believes germs exist. She won't get vaccinated or get flu shots (and won't vaccinate her dog either). Her "doctor" is an hour's drive away because she had to search far and wide for one who wasn't part of the "big medicine" conspiracy.

It's all so exhausting.

[-] jaybone@lemmy.zip 11 points 1 month ago

They want this same elitism. They want to have their own special secret knowledge only they (and a small handful of internet people “in the know”) have access to. This makes them feel special and superior.

[-] searabbit@piefed.social 4 points 1 month ago

Humans feeling a need to impose a hierarchy where they sit at the very top is why we can't have nice things

[-] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 4 points 1 month ago

Well then they should just join a mystery cult or practice alchemy

[-] Lemming6969@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

They are better than them, at that thing, and if you don't defer, then they have every right to scoff at the stupidity before them.

[-] Captain_Patchy@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

I see the point, but I don’t think intellectual elitism is the same as anti-anti-intellectualism. I think intellectual elitism creates a sense of alienation from science that in fact leads to anti-intellectualism.

That is just the inferiorily informed trying to justify their lack of knowledge by calling the people more knowledgeable than they are in that field "elitism".

In the modern day, They could EASILY educate themselves with the actual current and up to date scientific research, the internet exists.

The fact that they would rather "educate" themselves with populist YouTube bullshit videos that simply validate their incorrect beliefs instead of looking up the actual research papers that are 100% **ALSO available on the internet ** is entirely their fault and no one else's, you can't blame the fact that they won't read the research on "elitism"

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago

In the modern day, They could EASILY educate themselves with the actual current and up to date scientific research, the internet exists.

The people putting out actual scientific information are not rewarded for making their information easy to digest for the uneducated. They're rewarded for publishing scientific papers in journals that are read by other scientists.

I don't know about you, but I very rarely read scientific papers, especially in a field that isn't one I know well. Even if you know the field well there are all kinds of terms and math that mean reading a paper is hard. If you don't know the field, even understanding the terminology they use is a huge challenge. It's not realistic to expect someone with only a high school education to read papers.

Making media that appeals to, and is easily digested by regular people is a completely different skill set. Some people doing that actually care about real science. There are heroes who spend their time reading and digesting scientific papers so that they can explain them to regular people. But, there seem to be far more people who just make shit up that they know will go viral. If you're a product of the Mississippi educational system, you probably can't tell the difference between a legitimate science communicator and an asshole who's making shit up to go viral. For every David Attenborough, there are probably a dozen Dr. Mercolas. And, let's not forget that one of the most well known scientists writing about honesty and ethical behaviour was found to have plagiarized her research. So, even if you were reading scientific papers she'd written you might have been misled.

[-] NessaSola@eviltoast.org 1 points 4 weeks ago

That's alright. We don't have to mean the horizon of modern knowledge, when we say people have the opportunity to self-educate with the latest research. Even if we stick to popularized-and-mostly-true digestible information, there's still a useful line to draw here.

[-] ieGod@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 month ago

With respect to the subject at hand, they are better than you. Rejecting that is problematic.

this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2026
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