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[-] mysteryhumpf@feddit.org 188 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Burning gas is so extremely bad that even throwing away your old ICE car and buying a new electric car is better than driving the ICE car until it „falls apart“. This was the research finding in Switzerland, but this result was so unwelcome that the research got hidden away. https://www.republik.ch/2025/06/11/amtliche-selbstzensur

[-] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 34 points 1 month ago

oh wow I didn't know that!

would make sense to give more a lot incentives for EV buying if so!

[-] fulg@lemmy.world 37 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I wish they weren’t so expensive though.

IMO the biggest incentive of all is that the battery exists for the life of the vehicle and can be recycled at the end (the lithium inside does not disappear!), vs the gas which is literally burning money away.

[-] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

They are getting a lot cheaper overall. The EV Bolt is less than $4k more than a Camry. In expensive places like California, or with gas as high as it is, you can quickly make back that additional cost and get ahead over time, especially if you are able to charge from home. And TBH the Bolt isn't that bad of a car, and get's great distance per charge.

[-] innermachine@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

That and there's only so much gas, once we burn it all up it'll take millions of years to replenish. Yea, you could say the same about battery materials, but those get reused for what a decade before they start to degrade? And the actual energy is free once we have the means to harvest it (wind, solar etc are all "free" infinite energy so long as we have the panels and turbines)

[-] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

That and there’s only so much gas, once we burn it all up it’ll take millions of years to replenish.

Umm, AFAIK, we actually can't make more oil, so there isn't going to be any more gas, just work harder to find what's left. We absolutely should be moving to alternative energies to power civilization.

[-] innermachine@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

When I say millions of years I mean the plankton and our decomposing bodies will eventually make some oil, but by then our planet will be gone anyways lol. I'm sure human civilization won't make it to see any more oil produced

[-] ebc@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 month ago

Pretty sure the conditions on the planet when oil/coal formed were substantially different from today. In particular, there are now various organisms which feed on the decaying matter that's at the start of that process. These organisms eat that matter and emit CO2 as they live and breathe, returning the carbon to the air instead of burying underground.

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[-] innermachine@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

Socialize losses, privatize gains. I don't want my tax money incentivizing some rich asshole to buy an EV. Nobody that needs help buying a car can even consider an EV, their too expensive. The cheapest ev u can buy in USA is 30k, the cheapest ICE is 22k. And people that need help buying cars can't afford either. Only middle class + people are buying these things, and they don't need poor people's tax money to subsidize their purchase from a private corp. I'm all for evs but let's be honest the people buying them DONT need help buying them. Id rather see my tax money go toward renewable infrastructure or research on batteries and such! We can't keep relying on the private industry to fund research, in technology or in medicine or any science imo. But that's just my angry fist wagging opinion as somebody who refuses to spend more than 3k on a car because I'm not made of money. I'm not exactly poor, I'm a home owner under 30 and make around 60-70k a year depending on OT and bonuses. But if I went and got a loan on a Chevy bolt for 30k I would not be able to make my mortgage payments even with subsidies, so why should somebody who makes more get help buying a new car? Horseshit

[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago

There’s more reason to incentives than to “help people who can’t afford new”

  • the faster we develop an EV market, the sooner and cheaper used EVs will be available
  • the incentives get us to price parity sooner, so encourage people who don’t want to spend extra, whether they can or not
  • the faster market transition encourages investment in chargers. If you couldn’t be confident in a fast growing market why would you invest in chargers?
  • the faster market transition encourages and supports legacy manufacturers investing in new technology

EVs are inevitable, but we need to be encouraging a faster transition for environmental reasons. But the incentives were at least as much about trying to save legacy manufacturers as they were about encouraging consumers down that path.

Note that as soon as the US stopped incentives, legacy manufacturers withdrew from the EV market. Some were just reaching price parity, such as Chevy Equinox, but the few remaining choices will never have the volume to be profitable. Now they’re heavily protected, at the cost of less choice and much higher prices for all Americans, but that can’t last forever and they appear to be digging their own graves

[-] innermachine@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

While I agree with you, roll back of regulations has also contributed. For example the hemi was going to get killed but now their coming back, diesel emissions have lightened up, and epa no longer cares about the Greenhouse Gas Endangerment Finding and repealed it. There has been a LOT of factors this administration has changed that made EV less appealing and shifted us back to high pollution combustion and shitty refrigerants. I'm not convinced ev subsidies are the way forward, we need better renewable infrastructure to properly fuel our EVs and i think that should be funded by our tax dollars rather than hoping that if more people have evs more private corps will build the infrastructure for it. That's like encouraging building trains without any tracks to ride on! Plus renewable infrastructure isn't just for evs, that will help make all our homes greener too!

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[-] bequirtle@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

I don't want my tax money incentivizing some rich asshole to buy an EV

I mean.. why not? I'd like if every rich guy had an EV instead of ICE. Less pollution is less pollution

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[-] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

This isn't exactly correct or truthful. A new EV Bolt is only $4k more than a new Camry, and that difference is quickly made up from the gas saving, especially when gas is $4+ a gallon.

And when you want to accelerate adoption of something, you incentivize it. The US already spends $40+ billion in direct subsidies for oil (https://www.americanprogress.org/article/5-hidden-ways-the-government-rigs-the-market-in-favor-of-fossil-fuels/) Imagine instead of giving that to oil companies, you used that to accelerate the development of EV's and their roll out.

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[-] LincolnsDogFido@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 month ago

Have you never heard of financing? I make $50,000 a year and bought a used EV. The only reason I was able to was because of rebates offered by IL-EPA. If not for the rebate, I'd still be driving an ICE vehicle and paying $50/wk on gasoline.

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[-] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 22 points 1 month ago

Everytime you bring it up, you get a whole lot of people with gasoline powered cars getting very angry. Sure batteries are not 'perfect', but they are a whole lot better in almost every way compared to gasoline powered vehicles.

[-] CADmonkey@lemmy.world 23 points 1 month ago

The anger is less about how bad EV's are and more about being expected to buy a hilariously expensive EV when someone has a perfectly functional car. Make them cheaper and people will buy them, because other than the environmental aspect EV's just require less maintenance overall, making them cheaper to run.

[-] Sineljora@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I’d rather spend $100k converting an old ICE car to electric than give the auto industry another dime. The surveillance crap is literally a life or death decision for me. I have a 20y/o ice car I’ll likely have to convert, so no one try your dumb “new car math” with me.

If any fuckers want to make what I’m doing illegal, people will die.

[-] CADmonkey@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

Yes THERE is the issue that everyone seems to forget about new cars. I have a project car that I'm thinking will become an EV when it needs an engine because it will be so much easier to deal with. And it won't call home to the feds every day.

[-] JamesTBagg@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Old muscle cars converted to EV I think are so cool. There was a show that converted an old K10 truck and hid the batteries in the bed tool box.
A 80s station wagon, a Country Squire, or 70s luxury cruiser like a Cadillac or Lincoln would be awesome.

EVs, or just newer cars in general, are just so boring and cramped. Not to mention all the connection and surveillance concerns.

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[-] davidagain@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

If any fuckers want to make what I’m doing illegal, people will die.

All the shit going on in the USA just now and this is what drives you to murder?

(I assumed you're American because of the culturally dominant idea that it's ok to shoot people if it grants you a bit more personal liberty.)

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[-] TimothyOilypants@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 month ago

They are only hilariously expensive because ICE manufacturers are lobbying to keep Chinese EVs out of your country...

[-] CADmonkey@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

As an American who would really like a small truck, I know that. :-(

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[-] Mihies@programming.dev 7 points 1 month ago

Energy grid wouldn't survive quick mass EV adoption most likely. Heck, how would you even charge a car if you don't own a house - ideally parking places would have a slow charger where you could recharge car during night for cheap.

[-] Enoril@jlai.lu 21 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Litte remarks regarding EV and not having a point of charge at home.

I have an EV but don't own a house to charge it. Neither have a charging point on my appartement parking or my office (too complex/expensive to install). So I delayed buying an EV during few years. But I did the switch last year and don't regret it at all.

The solution?

I found a charging station with good price at 7km of my place.

When I come back from office and I'm starting to be below 30% battery remaining, I go there and charge up to 90% during ~30 min.

I read a book on my tablet while waiting in the car with the music and air conditioning (as it quite hot currently) while charging at approx ~~80/90~~ 45 kW/h... A nice break before going home to be honest ^^

I really handle the EV like a classic combustion engine car but with a small tank. Instead of having 800km of autonomy, i have 400~450km.

The key is to have a reliable and cheap charging station near your daily travel. Best being having it at home but it's definitely not mandatory.

I'm currently at an average of 4.02€ for 100km driven and my charging station doesn't require monthly fee. Just register an account, associate your car once and now it's plug and charge.

I share your view regarding the grid, you need to prepare it properly and good charging station is the first step.

Edit: Fixed the amount I usually charge: it's more around 45kW per charge.

[-] Mihies@programming.dev 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's cool that charging works for you that good. However, now imagine~~g~~ a rush of new EVs storming your charging point at the same time of the day. And also imagine people driving a lot more than you, charging each day for half an hour - that's quite some time spent as charging point. While I agree that having a charging point at home is not mandatory, it's much much friendlier, specially in case of mass EV adoption where chargers would lag behind demand.

[-] dgriffith@aussie.zone 10 points 1 month ago

While I agree that having a charging point at home is not mandatory, it's much much friendlier,

Even a normal outlet can handle slow charging an EV if you drive less than 100km a day.

Typical EV usage : 18kWh per 100km

Typical "granny" charger : 1800 watts (240v,7 amps)

10 hours at 1800 watts = 18kWh = 100km.

Get home at 6pm, plug in car, car is charged at 4am , leave for work at 7am. Enough spare time there to shift to charging outside peak evening usage at 9pm instead.

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[-] wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Not to be "um actually", but I owned a Nissan Leaf 1st gen over a decade ago, and the pain points you worry about weren't really pain points back then, and there was a loooooooooooot less EV infrastructure in place back then. Less reliable, too.

A couple of years ago I rented an EV with a friend who had zero experience with them. I explained everything, we had no evse at the hotel so needed to use public points, still was no issue at all. Each point we used was about 20% to capacity, they all had places to stretch, eat, etc at. No points were damaged or giving less than maximum output. It was extremely pleasant, and we used about $25 in fuel costs, vs $100+ for gasoline in a comparable vehicle.

I also didn't have an evse installed at home - I used the 110V, 'level 1' charger that plugs into an outlet for my Leaf. I drove a ton - 10k miles in 4 months, so 2.5x the national average. Even with heavy reliance on public points on a network that was in its infancy and prone to downtime, I still got by just fine.

And that was 12 years ago.

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[-] SirHaxalot@nord.pub 3 points 1 month ago

That is very anecdotal, and unlikely to apply to anyone else. If you charge 30-90% in an hour, that means that you must have found a cheap super charger? Not even just the regular 22kW fast chargers? Where I live all the super chargers is quite expensive, like 1.5x the price of gas /km. Which is fine as you would mainly use them fore rare long trips. Meanwhile charging at home is like 1/4th the cost of gas /km, and regular public 22kW chargers about the same as gas.

Having to regularly wait 30 minutes somewhere to charge can definitely be a real inconvenience, but I buy that it’s nice to just sit and relax for a bit though.

Also, isn’t regular super charging very bad for the battery health in the long run?

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[-] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

We have them in public parks here in my area, and people will park their EV's and just go for a hike or a walk. It's not that complex.

[-] AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

Idk they're making it work for data centers and those need way more energy

[-] Asetru@feddit.org 10 points 1 month ago

EV adoption can't happen in a second. If more EVs are sold, countries can just expand grids and charging networks with it.

[-] Mihies@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago

Expanding energy grid is a slow process. Like really slow.

[-] Asetru@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago

Just like replacing all cars.

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[-] toofpic@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

The quick mass adoption is happening in Scandinavia now, and we're ok

[-] asbestos@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

We’re blessed that it can survive the datacenters though

[-] Don_alForno@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago

Heck, how would you even charge a car if you don't own a house

How would you even fill a tank if you don't own a gas station?

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 4 points 1 month ago

Gas tank fills in 5 minutes if you are empty and have a large tank to fill, otherwise less. Also, if I know that I am going to be away from gas stations for awhile (camping, offroading) I can fill up my can and carry that with me.

[-] luthis@lemmy.nz 6 points 1 month ago
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[-] mecen@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 month ago

Seem like the greatest solution, these EV can also act as battery storage for renewables.

[-] Mihies@programming.dev 3 points 1 month ago

That's tricky though. Would you deplete it during night to have it empty in the morning? Wear expensive battery? Plus, I assume, car is disconnected from grid for most of the day (i.e. when you are at work).

[-] mecen@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago

But you park it at work there could be slow AC charger, to slowly charge it when you are away.

Placing solar on rooftop of car also seem as good idea

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[-] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

but this result was so unwelcome that the research got hidden away.

the climate, oil industry did not like it was being contradicted.

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this post was submitted on 19 Jun 2026
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