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this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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Good. This woman could have sickened not only her target, but anyone who came in contact with what she sent. While I share her politics, hate makes monsters of us all, and she crossed the line. While I don't think the "there are good people on both sides" argument holds much water, actions like hers remind me that there are definitely bad people on both sides.
Good men have to do bad things to make the world a better place.
Every time I come upon that dynamic in real life, it's always turned out to be the wrong decision. The ends may justify the means, but the means defines the ends.
I would, many of them are my ancestors (both sides of the conflict, and some freed by it). And the results were horrifying, even if the means were justified by the evil of slavery (which was a far greater evil than what was inflicted on the Confederates).
Sherman's march made martyrs of the Confederate cause, and those that weren't martyrs turned around and started the KKK, using Union brutality as a rallying cry, and the political backlash derailed Reconstruction with Jim Crow laws.
The means defined the end result, which we're still dealing with today in the form of MAGA.
This is the dynamic I speak of. I don't believe fighting evil is the wrong decision, but per Sun Tzu:
Had a peaceful solution been worked out, or a surrender negotiated before the razing of the Georgia countryside, I believe that Reconstruction would have been a success. Needless to say, those were unrealistic options at the time, so I do not fault my ancestors (those that fought on the winning side) for the choices they had to make. But those destructive actions led to more evil - driven underground - hiding until recent years, and still potent enough to affect our political discourse today.
No, absolutely fucking no. The ends do not and cannot justify the means.
Hate to do Godwins Law but the Allies brought death and destruction to destroy the reign of the Third Reich and I believe that we all know that was a good outcome.
See my comment here for why the ends can never justify the means. I'm happy to discuss at any length, but that's where I would start.
Killing a bunch of staffers with ricin in an envelope that would never have gotten to Trump is not making the world a better place.
Funny, that's exactly what they say
Doing bad things to make the world a better place is an oxymoronic sentence.
And just regular moronic.
I hate to do the Godwins Law but the Allies have brought down death and destruction to the reign of the Third Reich. Sherman let loose the dogs of war on the South to bring freedom to the slaves. I believe we all know that they brought good outcomes.
Who started those conflicts? Cause it wasn't the allies or Sherman. Reacting to bad is not the same as doing bad.
But doing bad things as a reaction is what I’m getting at.
In what world is preventing authoritarian governments from expanding their power and committing genocides, or fighting to free slaves, doing bad things? Those conflicts were started by someone else doing bad things, and the reaction was to stop those people from continuing to do bad things.
Who watches the watchmen?
There definitely is good people, you might not have met them, you are extremely disposed to not meet them and that is OK, hang around with people you want to, learned that myself not too long ago. You may have likely talked or interacted friendly with a (former) supporter.
I myself am not much invested, people's hate of trump is weird given he ultimately did not even do much, like most presidents, but for me it is just stuff that can be felt outside US I dunno did california implode or did he personally appoint and send the floyd cop out or something. US for sure does not have a big beautiful mexico wall.
He did a lot of things. Bad things.
To be fair, I don't actually believe there are good and bad people (we're all a mix), and I agree with you that there are people who do good who are Trumpers (I'm a small town boy, so I grew up with a lot of them).
From a personal standpoint, the effect Trump had on California was significant and frightening, especially as a member of a mixed race family. It was real fun having to explain to my teenager why we were being followed by a Trump convoy on the freeway screaming the N word out the window. It fucking terrified both of us, as this had happened right after the bus got run off the road in Texas, and these guys clearly thought Trump had given the go ahead to go Mad Max on the libs.
From an economic standpoint, his immigration policies did real harm - my friends in the wine business had to leave grapes rotting on the vine because they were suddenly short workers (similar to what Florida is experiencing now). 70% + of international business on the west coast is with China, and he started a trade war that benefited no one, which really pissed off my techbro colleagues in e-commerce. The reason your taxes and mine went up this year is because of the package he passed while President, while permanently cutting taxes for the ultra-wealthy.
On top of that, the evil bastard put over 500,000 kids behind bars - many of whom are the extended family of my neighbors and co-workers, just trying to escape the cartel violence in Mexico.
So yes, there was a significant negative effect on California when Trump was elected. And while I can accept that people who support him are capable of good things, their support of him is definitely not one of them, and more than worthy of derision. Not murderous hate, however.
You left out all the COVID deaths.
That and many, many, many other things, but I decided to focus on the kids in cages for this particular argument so that I didn't end up writing 20 pages.
Fair enough.
Here's the thing, at the start of his presidency even i was like "In reality he can't do as much as President as people think he can"
Then the insurrection and stolen documents happened. You really should've given up this stance by now if you ever truly believed in it.
Bro, I'm sorry, but if you don't think Trump did much then you might be fucking blind and deaf. He incited a fucking insurrection dude, he's currently in court for multiple indictments.