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[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

On limiting imagination to only what they approve: I’d push back there. I’m door knocking, building mutual aid, working with DSA and WFP, advocating for RCV, trying to build local alternatives to capitalism

None of that is disapproved. I too have done all of those things. I have found them to be cul-de-sacs. In both DSA and WFP the racism is virulent. At least in DSA some chapters have labor organizing groups. But the electoral groups in DSA are toxic, in my experience. As for local alternatives to capitalism, I love me some co-ops, some soup kitchens, and some community gardens, but they're never going to save us.

What I’ve said is that both establishment Democrats and Republicans are spending money to stop him

Which would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that meta-gaming is a thing in politics and they totally understand the idea of amplifying the impression of being resistant. I don't trust it for a second based on what I know of Platner... to wit...

collapsing it into general lesser evil sheepherding requires ignoring everything specific about it.

So here's what I see that's specific about it. Platner was a US soldier who killed brown people under some of the worst conditions in recent memory. He saw the atrocities, and he volunteered for more duty. Then he volunteered for mercenary duty. And you know what he says made him quit? That the mercenary companies were ripping off the US government. Then he became a luxury food farmer. This is the definition of being part of the petite bourgeois. The petite bourgeois are well known internationally and historically to be reactionary fascists because of the economic position. But some of them have historically been class traitors, so we'll have to dig deeper. Why did Platner get into politics? Well, because he didn't like what the politics was doing to his oyster farm. OK, so self-interested, check. Why did Platner get on the radar of Democrats? Well, because he organized his local community. Oh?! That's good right? Well, he organized them to fight a big corporate aquaculture company from ruining his farming business. So..., no. Squarely petite bourgeois. OK. So, at this point we have a murderer who volunteered to murder more and then decided to suck up into his own little world selling luxury food to the bourgeoisie and then got into politics specifically to protect his economic interests. Taken through a historical lens, that's essentially the profile of most Nazi collaborators in Eastern Europe. Then you couple that with the Tottenkopf, the late game removal of said Tottenkopf, and the attempt at downplaying it literally to a question only of whether or not he knew what it was instead of actually addressing its meaning, history, and the impact it could have on others? His entire anti-war stance is limited to America First economic resentment. To me, that's the specifics of the case. And the specific things absent are also telling. Platner is not working with vets, or disgruntled men, or young boys. He's not helping people to deconstruct the patriarchy inside them, the white supremacy inside them, the violence inside them. He's not using ANY of his traumatic experiences to help others. He's on a path from storm trooper to mercenary to petite bourgeois to petite bourgeois politician with the very real potential of unexamined white supremacy, misogyny, and potentially even war crimes.

As for being a sheep-dog? I think it's pretty clear he's attracted a TON of energy that otherwise could have been used to build anti-imperialist movements.

On Bernie: [...] Operating within a broken system under constraint isn’t the same as actively building the infrastructure of harm

When he votes to approve the constant expansion of the military, how is Bernie not actively building the infrastructure of harm? He had no obligation to endorse who he endorsed. You're correct that it's not at the same level as Presidents, but Sanders isn't a President, he's a Senator. And while he's done good, he's made substantial compromises and he's backed away from fights when he had the necessary support from people. He could have sacrificed his career. That's honestly not too much to ask. Many politicians have sacrificed their career to fight for what they believed in. Bernie didn't. He told his supporters that they should all compromise the way he's compromising.

But the grief cycle theory is still making a bet. It’s betting radicalization outpaces harm accumulation.

That's not actually true. The grief cycle theory is a hypothesis for how to fundamentally solve a particular problem, specifically the tendency of euro-centric liberalism to produce fascism.

And that bet has a historical test case that did not go well. Weimar Germany. Massive radicalization. Demonstrated failure of liberal institutions. Widespread grief about the old system. Fascism still consolidated first because it had more organizational infrastructure ready when the window opened. The grief cycle doesn’t just produce revolutionaries, it also produces fascists simultaneously from the same conditions. Whoever is more organized when the crisis peaks wins.

Yeah, see I think the German example shows the opposite. People did NOT go through grief. They wanted to believe. That's why the National Socialists won them over with tales of tradition and white supremacy. They interrupted the grief cycle. But more importantly, Hitler never won a majority electorally and the Nazis still took power. So I agree with you. We need to organize and organize fast. But organizing to vote for liberalism does two things: 1) it interrupts the grief cycle by reinforcing the delusion that there is some aspect of good that can be protected and nurtured in the political system of a genocidal liberal democracy and 2) it steals energy from organizing in ways that are effective against fascism. Organizing to vote has never been effective against fascism historically. If we all abandoned the ballot box and sat each other down and went through the group processing of grief that not only is America gone but that America was never good, never worth saving, and never worth preserving, we would actually have a chance against fascism. The Bolsheviks literally won the day because they said "Russia ought to lose the war". That sort of revolutionary defeatism is what won, not hoping they could steer the military to be 1% less imperialist.

The Vietnamese won the day not because they thought that they could collaborate with the French occupiers to reduce the harm they were doing but because they knew the current form of their country needed to be destroyed. The Chinese won the day not because they thought they could make the Japanese and Europeans slightly more gentle but because they knew they had to go beyond the current form of government and current relationships and destroy them to produce a just society.

Voting for Platner, organizing the vote for Platner, and organizing the fight against Platner critics is not organizing that will fight fascism. It is the definition of sheep-dogging.

However, the people who get deported, lose healthcare, disappear into detention, or die while we wait for sufficient radicalization aren’t theoretical. A movement that has fewer people because the conditions it was waiting to create killed them first isn’t stronger. It’s smaller and facing something more consolidated.

What you don't understand is that this is bi-partisan. Obama deported 100% more than Trump has. Obama appointed Homan to do it. Trump used the same guy. The prison-industrial complex enjoys total bi-partisan support. Mass racialized incarceration enjoys bi-partisan support. Mass surveillance enjoys bi-partisan support. Mass surveillance by the US military on US citizens enjoys bi-partisan support. And here's where I'm going with this:

[Comic]

This comic assumes that the strategy is accelerationism to force people to radicalize by preventing meaningful change through lesser evilism. It's not.

The strategy is consciousness raising to induce people to radicalize by revealing the truth that we are trapped in a Good Cop / Bad Cop situation. No amount of working with the Good Cop will improve our chances of success. The Republicans and the Democrats are 2 PR firms for the ruling class. They play Good Cop / Bad Cop with the citizens. This is why Pelosi said we need a strong Republican party. Because the Republicans and the Democrats across the country golf together, party together, go to school together, work together, eat together, drink together, laugh and cry and celebrate together. They're colleagues. On the election trail, they play up their differences and make moral overtures about how "if you believe this, then you must vote for me", but the outcomes are primarily the same. As PR firms, they each have their own kayfabe. When what is needed is a carrot, like expanding entitlements, the Democrats take up that charge. When what is needed is a stick, like austerity or domestic police violence, the Republicans take up that charge.

I'm not advocating for accelerationism of the decline of social conditions. That's going to happen faster than anyone can imagine. It's accelerating because the US has been outmaneuvered on the world stage and the elite are desperately trying to save their position, so desperate that the financial faction and the cybernetic faction actually had a pretty serious schism for awhile there, though it seems like they may have patched it up and have a tenuous alliance while they make money together manipulating the markets. Social conditions are going to decline no matter what we do. Voting can't change geopolitical conditions. I'm advocating for people to give up the delusion that things like the WFP or a local food co-cop are going to save us, if only we could get people to vote for the candidates that won't smash our delicate sandcastle. That's delusional thinking.

[-] godsammitdam@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The Bernie military vote point is stronger than I gave it credit for too. Voting to expand military budgets isn't just operating under constraint, it's a specific action with specific consequences. And he had no obligation to endorse who he endorsed. Real compromises that caused real harm. I'll own that.

The Good Cop/Bad Cop framing is the clearest thing you've written. Pelosi needing a strong Republican party. Bipartisan deportation records. Bipartisan surveillance. Bipartisan mass incarceration. Documented and not argued. We don't have to rehash how the establishment dems are ushering in fascism just as much as the pedophilic republicans. We're aligned there, and the establishment Dem party is obviously a captured party that's supposed to be used to depressurize revolutionary fervor.

On Platner: the profile is worth scrutinizing. Where I'd push back is that you're presenting a chain of interpretations as a settled verdict. The specific conditions of this race still matter as variables even if the profile is concerning.

On the consciousness raising vs accelerationism distinction: that's the most important clarification you've made. You're not saying make things worse to force radicalization. You're saying break the delusion that working within the system can save us. I understand that, but I fear that simply abstaining from voting does more of that harm. I think of MLK and Malcolm X. 2 sides of the same coin, but what was essentially put forth was "you can deal with MLK or you can deal with Malcolm. Who do you want to deal with?" I would rather deal with a democrat who says they're going to do better and hold them to the fire than a republican who gets off on shamelessness in addition to children.

And I recognize we're worried about the same long term outcome. That pushing back fascism incrementally lets people get comfortable, energy dissipates, and the underlying conditions never get addressed. That's a real contention.

But here's where I can't follow you.

On Weimar: I pushed back too broadly earlier. The National Socialists never received a majority. Their support was concentrated in a specific profile, economically displaced petit bourgeois, disaffected young men, veterans with unprocessed trauma, people whose identity organized around status hierarchies that had collapsed. That's not everyone looking for something to believe in, as there were those who still pushed back against it, that's a specific psychological and material condition being activated and channeled.

And that's exactly the problem with the grief cycle bet. Increased suffering and violence doesn't just radicalize people against the system. It radicalizes them for it too. And one side of that equation currently has vastly more power, infrastructure, and resources to perform that radicalization and twist it to their own ends than we do. The National Socialists were mostly imagery and bluster, as fascism always is, aesthetics of strength and belonging and someone to blame. That's enough. That's all it takes to capture disaffected young men full of rage who are looking for a target for a destructive tendency they don't know what to do with. Fascism doesn't need majority support. It needs an organized minority with that profile and the infrastructure to channel them before we can get to them first. And violence breaks down organizing, just as much as it breaks down hierarchy (for example, forcing those with property to recognize the tenuous relationship between "ownership" and the rules society has built and how they can easily be circumvented.)

The grief cycle theory assumes that if we stop offering false hope, people will complete the grief and radicalize toward us. But the conditions producing the grief also produce people who look like, to pull from fiction, Tetsuo from Akira, like Simon from Infinity Train, like Azulin from Unicorn Wars. (Video breaking down these characters I'm thinking of that was decent if you're interested) Broken, traumatized, conditioned toward dominance, full of rage with no healthy outlet. I know because I once felt the same when I was younger, but thankfully I found people who were able to pull me out of that rage. And the system is very good at getting to those people before we are. It gives them imagery, belonging, an enemy, and it allows them to use their power to pull themselves up by harming those around them. We're offering them a process of grief and consciousness raising that requires sitting with profound discomfort and uncertainty. That's a harder sell and it operates on a longer timeline against an opponent that's actively recruiting from the same pool right now.

If we had the organizational capacity to get enough people to not vote on a scale that would actually delegitimize the system, we'd have the capacity to run a nationwide general strike. We're nowhere near either. We've been struggling to sustain a single day of action.

And my own radicalization didn't come from the failure of a single candidate. It came from watching the cruelty and imperialist nature of the US play out over years. If that's more commonly how radicalization happens, the grief cycle theory is betting on a mechanism that may not even be the primary driver.

The people being deported under the infrastructure Obama built and Trump expanded didn't get a vote on which timeline the left chose to operate on. I'm not defending the system, I'm arguing that the people paying the cost of being wrong about the timeline deserve to be named in it.

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

I was willing to entertain that you might have been using a.i. as a crutch, but I'm not willing to have a full blown dialog with a.i. if you're just going to copy and paste it without thinking for yourself.

And my own radicalization didn’t come from the failure of a single candidate. It came from watching the cruelty and imperialist nature of the US play out over years. If that’s more commonly how radicalization happens, the grief cycle theory is betting on a mechanism that may not even be the primary driver.

Acknowledging the cruelty and imperialist nature of the US is the grief cycle. It's acceptance, the last stage. We were all raised to believe the US was something else. We had to grieve to arrive at acceptance that the US is not that. Similarly, there is a grief cycle to realize that voting can't change that.

Broken, traumatized, conditioned toward dominance, full of rage with no healthy outlet

That's being stuck in grief cycle, not completing it. Anger is the second stage. It's the stage we get stuck in when there are no healthy communities of grief to support us in our grieving. White men are isolated, by design, and thus become stuck in the anger stage. The path forward is support each other in moving past the anger stage.

And the system is very good at getting to those people before we are

No, it's not. The system is ALREADY AT THOSE PEOPLE before they even begin the process of anger. The system is fundamentally there at all times causing this. The solution is to build communities of healing and breaking down illusions that trap us, including revealing how the system works to trap us.

Increased suffering and violence

Is NOT what I'm advocating for. That's what accelerationism is. I am advocating for the demolition of illusions that protect people from grieving about the suffering and violence that is here.

[-] godsammitdam@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

And here I thought there was common ground, even sharing my own personal story a bit, trying to connect. And now I'm AI? I was a writer by trade. I'm certain my writing, along with millions of others, were used to train AI, most without our consent.

Meanwhile your structure and cadence shifted with your longer responses. So 🤷‍♂️

Yeah, I'm out. Anything I attempt to say now will just be claimed as "copy and paste."

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

It doesn't seem weird to you that both of your last substantive comments started with the exact same concepts in the same structure and only slightly reworded?

[-] godsammitdam@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It's called concessions dude. Argumentative structure. I steelman your argument, give it concessions where I do agree, and then follow up where I disagree and state my points. It leaves the reader on those points to let them settle.

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

You don't think this is weird? Your second comment repeating your first comment even though my intervening comment didn't mention these things?

Are you saying you were just rewriting your comment and leaving in the stuff that didn't change? I've just never seen anyone in any forum do that before in 30 years.

[-] godsammitdam@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago

No, that's my own fault for copying and pasting the previous comment to rewrite the latter half and not editing the top half.

In all honesty, I was sitting on a roof taking a break while installing solar panels. That's my bad.

[-] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

Sorry for accusing you of using a.i. I thought it was just regurgitating. I should assumed it was copy paste. My bad

this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2026
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