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this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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The gendered leagues exist to promote women in chess. They need to do this because women have historically been discriminated against. These new rules feel like they are asking trans women to prove they are oppressed enough to deserve to play in women's leagues.
Some of the requirements for the change in status is problematic as well.
That is a hard requirement to meet in large chunks of the world. Many countries don't legally recognize gender change so it may be quite literally impossible to comply with "national laws and regulations." There's some carve out for asylum and refugee status. But it is possible to be a trans woman in a country, not be able to legally change your gender, and not feel unsafe enough to seek asylum.
I'm reading more on the titles now. So from the actual FIDE document:
And from what [FIDE titles]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_titles) are on Wikipedia. It seems there is an underlying misogyny in how women's titles work. It seems to me the proper solution is to get rid of the separate title requirements.
Ooh, that's clever. They ducked out of having to set their own criteria.
That definitely changes things somewhat. I was assuming the investigation would involve your doctor providing testimony, not whatever hoops your local jurisdiction may or may not have in place.
I suppose women's leagues had more value in the past than they do now, I don't see any problems with just getting rid of them at this point. But this could just be my western perspective speaking. They might still have great value in other parts of the world.
It now sounds like they just ducked the issue though, for the most part. Not setting their own criteria or using the criteria of an international medical association was a little underhanded. Just because the local laws vary from place to place shouldn't mean trans folks from some places can't win chess tournaments anymore.
Honestly that surprises me a lot less though. Chess is unusually popular with intellectual-leaning bigots for some reason, it's a bit of a refuge for racism sometimes. Makes me really glad Magnus is the top player these days, he's a bit more of a modern guy.
I think women's leagues have their place still. Or some kind of system to encourage more women into chess. There's currently 15.7k men with titles and only 4k women with titles. Until those numbers get closer I would want to see some kind of action taken.
If you want to get radical with women's league you can just have the requirement for them to declare that you are a woman. It can quite literally be a checkbox on a forum when registering. Social pressure will take care of most of the issues. The edge case of men regesterioin bad faith can be handled on a case by case basis.
We really do need some better way to catch cis folks mis-registering in bad faith. It'd resolve some issues around the whole broader battle.
We could just do blood tests. Check for a wider variety of steroids in professional sports while we're at it. Then, your hormone levels would classify you, not anything you could say or choose.
Invasive as all hell though.
No we don't and no it wouldn't, bigots are just going to come up with the next excuse for their bigotry while we're subjecting innocent people to things that are (as you aptly put it) invasive as all hell
Yeah, but otherwise they're just going to keep shutting it down with accusations of cheating. You can't just hand wave that away, it won't go away. It needs to be dealt with systematically, eventually.
Hand waving away bigoted nonsense is exactly how you make it go away, it's the only way it goes away. If you give these people an inch they're just going to crow about how that proves they were right all along about everything and why we have to give in to their next set of demands.
I disagree whole heartedly that that makes it go away. If that worked, bigoted nonsense would have gone away by now.
People's ability to create arguments that influence other, neutral parties is far more powerful than the rational truth, and needs to be addressed in some way.
I genuinely have no idea what period in history you could be basing that on
We already had that discussion and now the overwhelming majority of doctors and researchers understand trans people are people and gender affirming healthcare is good healthcare. If you're neutral at this point you're at best embarrassingly ignorant and most likely just a bigot.
I think that's a little out of touch with different American sub-cultures, which do not all share the same values. They certainly do not necessarily share our faith in modern, evidence-based methods. While that may be embarrassing to you, embarrassment is a cultural phenomenon. They clearly feel no embarrassment.
We tried to shove bigotry under the rug for huge chunks of the past century, just ignoring things like neo-Nazism in the hopes they would go away. They have strengthened instead.
The fact of the matter is the cheating argument is plausible, and that makes it compelling. It's their only one. That makes ignoring it unwise, when it could be simply dealt with.
If they don't believe in empirical evidence and the scientific method then there is less than nothing to be gained from debating them, it will set things back for people who aren't engaged in this issue to see them being taken seriously like there is any real debate here.
I feel pretty strongly that you're ~~ignoring~~ forgetting the Nazi element of this right now with this insistence on taking their bullshit arguments seriously
The fact of the matter is that it is not plausible and ~~you~~ reiterating that it is doesn't make it so.
e; I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt that you genuinely mean well here and are just mistaken, tried to adjust the language to better reflect that
So, you're saying it is not plausible for someone to claim to be trans when they suffer no dysphoria, simply to be an asshole?
In what way is it prevented?
Being an asshole isn't cheating. Plus, if we're gonna throw out every chess player who is an asshole we're gonna be throwing out a lot of them.
e; And there's no practical way to go after assholes here without harming a lot of innocent non-assholes in the process.
Also, if your goal is just to avoid any controversies and arguments, wait until someone accuses their opponent of being trans to try to get them thrown out.
It's a stupid rule that solves a non-issue while creating a lot more problems.
I couldn't help but note that you backed off from saying cheating is not plausible. The plausibility of the argument is the problem. That's what makes it effective in the social space.
I also don't really see how a policy of blood testing would actually be harmful. Inconvenient and expensive, yes, but it would be done to everyone. That makes it fair. If the information was kept private, it wouldn't be harmful either.
I don't think I did. Forgive some paraphrasing, but this was our exchange as I understand it,
Me: This is a dumb rule.
You: It will prevent cheating.
Me: No it won't.
You: It will prevent a specific kind of asshole behavior.
Me: That kind of asshole behavior doesn't constitute cheating, it's just being an asshole and trying to prevent that causes more harm than good.
And speaking of more harm than good, blood draws for everyone that wants to participate in women's chess is inconvenient and unpleasant enough to defeat the whole point of this league in the first place. Like, "So we wanted to be more inclusive and get more women involved in chess, yahta yahta, now let me stick you with a needle and take some of your blood. Oh, no, you wouldn't have to do this in an open tournament, just some special hassles for your tournaments is all." is not going to go over well is all.
So, yeah, I still think this is a stupid rule that "solves" something that's not a problem and creates a couple of new ones.
Admittedly, I'm not thinking about just chess, but the overall argument of how to classify and allow trans folks to participate in competitive events. I don't see a big difference between trans people in chess vs swimming or basketball.
Regardless of how you want to frame the discussion, it's this argument they put forward to justify banning trans people. You seem to want to ignore it entirely. I really think that's unwise, and I'm looking for some kind of potential solution to actually address it.
I think, overall, and regardless of how popular it is, this method of ignoring opposition arguments is very detrimental. 90% of the country's land area has never seen a trans person in real life, so the arguments they read about are all they have.
I mean, there clearly are big differences between chess and basketball.
Right, I think I get what you're saying on this level, the bigots out there have gotten more traction with dumbass centrist types when they attack trans people participating in sports than they have had with other things and it would be good to have an effective rejoinder to that whole line of attack.
But that's exactly what I'm doing here. I'm not ignoring their arguments, I'm saying they're fucking stupid, they're made only as a pretext to hurt trans people, and they're going to lead to policies that make women's chess worse for everyone. You don't need to know the first thing about gender affirming healthcare or to have ever met a trans person to understand that, but the moment we start needlessly saying untrue stuff like "the people making these arguments make some good points" or "the people making these arguments aren't just hateful scum" we start making this issue more complicated and confusing than it should be for the persuadable ones, and the bigots are just going to say "See, we were right about that, and we're also right about [more transphobia] and we need to [more repressive policies targeting trans people]."
I think you sorely underestimate the reasons other people believe the things they do. You're approaching this from your own background, maybe, and have never been something like an evangelical christian? They're a massive segment of the population, wielding significant power.
Calling their argument stupid, when it is 100% possible, is fundamentally foolish. You're not actually dealing with their argument, you're just saying its false and calling it stupid.
These are not rational rejoinders against an argument that lies within the realm of possibility.
Yes, I understand that chess and basketball are not the same. That is why I clarified that I am really thinking more generally about competitive events as a whole. This was why I mentioned steroids earlier, which are not common in chess. It's a broader discussion, really, chess is just the latest example.
"90% of the country's land area has never seen a trans person in real life..."
Do you have a link for this?
Anecdotal. You don't encounter many LGBT folks in rural areas, the stigma is still too strong. You would get physically assaulted in certain situations. Trans folks are unheard of, except in media.
It's not until you get closer to urban areas that they become a little safer and more comfortable expressing themselves.
90% is just a rough estimate of the ratio of urban to rural.