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[-] EvergreenGuru@lemmy.world 122 points 6 days ago

The issue with the headline is it implies the Lebanese are the aggressors, when Israel is using missiles to demolish infrastructure and killing indiscriminately so that they can occupy Lebanon and steal territory.

Also mention them as Pro-Iranian. They’re fighting against the destruction and occupation of Lebanon (where they’re from).

[-] tacoplease@lemmy.world 17 points 5 days ago

Yup, pro-Iran is a mislabel when they're obviously pro-Lebanon and anti-Israel first and foremost.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 12 points 6 days ago

it implies the Lebanese are the aggressors

no, it doesn't. It implies that Hezbollah are aggressors, which they are, just as much as Israel.

The Lebanese are the victims of both.

[-] EvergreenGuru@lemmy.world 55 points 6 days ago

Sorry, but clearly the people defending their country are the defenders. I’m not a fan of propaganda or doublespeak.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 7 points 5 days ago

Sorry, but clearly the people defending their country are the defenders.

Yes, the Lebanese army.

The IDF and Hezbollah are the aggressors.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 31 points 5 days ago

The IOF have always been the aggressors. Hezbollah only exists because of the IOF invasions, ethnic cleansings, and settler colonialism of Lebanon.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 5 points 5 days ago

So the fact that an occupying terrorist group was spawned by an occupying terrorist group excuses their occupation and terrorism?

They could have been fighting Israeli aggression, terrorism, and occupation without becoming occupiers and terrorists themselves. But they didn't.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 14 points 5 days ago

Dude, we get it. You have no clue what you're talking about. There's some guides on hasbara I'm sure you can find, you could use the help.

Again, Hezbollah only exists because of massacres like Sabra and Shatila, along with the other massacres utilizing the Dahiya doctrine during the 6 Israeli invasions

After the 2008 war, the Goldstone Report addressed IDF strategy in 2009, determining that the “Disproportionate destruction and violence against civilians were part of a deliberate policy.”

1982

The 1982 Lebanon war began on 6 June 1982, when Israel invaded again for the purpose of attacking the Palestine Liberation Organization. The Israeli army laid siege to Beirut. During the conflict, according to Lebanese sources, between 15,000 and 20,000 people were killed, mostly civilians.

On 16 February 1985, Shia Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared a manifesto in Lebanon, announcing a resistance movement called Hezbollah, whose goals included combating the Israeli occupation. During the South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000) the Hezbollah militia waged a guerrilla campaign against Israeli forces occupying Southern Lebanon and their South Lebanon Army proxies.

Israeli Withdrawal

Throughout the painstaking process of confirming the Israeli withdrawal, Hizballah was at pains to declare its commitment to recovering the last millimeter of Lebanese territory, but it also acknowledged that it would not act hastily to reinitiate violence. In sum, Hizballah's behavior and deference to state authority have worked to its political advantage. It reaped recognition in an unprecedented meeting between Nasrallah and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who praised Hizballah's restraint and its promise of cooperation. The meeting with Annan offers a remarkable contrast with Hizballah's earlier days, when it was hostile to the UN and especially to the UN force in the south.

Without an agreement between Syria and Israel, there will be little pressure on Hizballah to disarm. Syria's calculated strategy is to allow Hizballah to serve as a constant reminder of the consequences of continuing to occupy the Golan Heights.This is a role that Hizballah is happy to play, given its enmity toward Israel. At the same time, it remains profoundly aware of the political costs of bringing destruction down on the heads of its supporters, and this further reduces the prospect that Hizballah will initiate attacks on Israel

2006

The doctrine is named after the Dahiya suburb of Beirut, where the Lebanese paramilitary group Hezbollah has its headquarters, which the Israeli military leveled during its assault on Lebanon in the summer of 2006 that killed nearly 1,000 civilians, about a third of them children, and caused enormous damage to the country’s civilian infrastructure, including power plants, sewage treatment plants, bridges, and port facilities.

It was formulated by then-General Gadi Eisenkot when he was Chief of Northern Command. As he explained in 2008 referring to a future war on Lebanon: "What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on… We will apply disproportionate force on it (village) and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases… This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.” Eisenkot went on to become chief of the general staff of the Israeli military before retiring in 2019.

While it became official Israeli military doctrine after Israel’s 2006 attack on Lebanon, Israel’s military has used disproportionate force and targeted Palestinian, Lebanese, and other civilians since Israel was established in 1948 based on the ethnic cleansing of indigenous Palestinians, including dozens of massacres to force them to flee for their lives.

2007 - 2022

Until recently, the border had been relatively quiet. Occasional rockets or drones crossed from Lebanon into Israel without leading to serious escalation, while Israel violated Lebanese airspace more than 22,000 times from 2007 to 2022.

While the withdrawal was certified by the United Nations, Lebanon disputed it, arguing that the Shebaa Farms was part of its territory, and not part of the Syrian Golan Heights, which Israel continues to occupy.

So there are two separate issues here that lead to the current dispute: the first is that Israel occupies the Golan Heights and treats it as its own territory in violation of international law, and the second is that there was already a pre-existing disagreement between Syria and Lebanon over the border, prior to the Israeli occupation.

::

spoiler 2023-2025

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/18/hezbollah-and-israel-a-timeline-of-conflict

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2024/4/15/mapping-israel-lebanon-cross-border-attacks :::

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[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 5 days ago

Most countries in the world do not design Hizbollah as a terrorist group, only israel's western countries puppet does.

[-] Wakmrow@lemmy.world 17 points 5 days ago

Quick question dumbass.

Where is the fighting taking place

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Lol when did the lebanese ever defended a single lebanese? If the lebanese army was strong and was nit blocked from attacking Israel by France and the usa demands, hizbollah would have not existed.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 5 days ago

Without hizbollah south lebanon if not all lebanon would have been colonized . I don't know how you shamelessly say Israel and Hizbollah are equally evil.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 days ago

I said both are aggressors, not both are equally evil.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 5 days ago

The context of the post is israel vs hizbollah. It that context the only agressor is Israel.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 days ago

The context of the post is israel vs hizbollah. It that context the only agressor is Israel.

that's complete bullshit.

If you take the timeline starting in 2026, then either Israel and the US are the aggressors and the scope is bigger than just Israel and Hezbollah, or you insist on limiting it to only Israel and Hezbollah but Hezbollah are the aggressors.

If you start from 2023, then again, if you only look at Israel and Hezbollah, then Hezbollah are the aggressors.

If you expand the timeline beyond that you really cannot limit the scope to just those two belligerents, because all the regional conflicts are way too interwoven.

Trying to look for simplistic good vs bad framing might be appealing but is ultimately dishonest.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Even in 2023 Israel was the aggressor. In response to Israel geocoding Palestinians Hezbollah launched rockets on occupied land, Israel went and targeted civilians infrastructures and Lebanese civilians . Israel is the colonial genocidal power , Hezbollah is the resistance group no amount of bullshit from your side is going to change that.

1982 Israel occupied Lebanon, Israel is the aggressor, 2006 Israel had Lebanese is jail, Israel is the aggressor, post 2026 Israel continued bombing Lebanese in breach of the resolution 1701 , Israel was the aggressor, 2026 Israel continued bombing Lebanon despite a cease fire, again Israel the aggressor.

Trying to look for simplistic good vs bad framing might be appealing but is ultimately dishonest.

Again the context in this post is Hezbollah vs Israel . Israel is the colonial genocidal power , Hezbollah is the resistance group.

Trying to look for simplistic good vs bad framing might be appealing but is ultimately dishonest.

You are trying to frame the debate as both are aggressors to reject Hezbollah right to resistance which would allow Israel to occupy under pretext of security, then start putting settlers and finally after few years declare sovereignty on those land. My stand is more nuanced with facts. I did acknowledge that Hezbollah did atrocities but in the context of the war still in the context of the post Israel is the only aggressor.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

Even in 2023 Israel was the aggressor. In response to Israel geocoding Palestinians Hezbollah launched rockets on occupied land, Israel went and targeted civilians infrastructures and Lebanese civilians.

Dude, you said Israel is the aggressor when only looking at Israel and Hezbollah and then include Palestine.

So are we looking at only Israel and Hezbollah, or are we looking at Israel, Hezbollah, and other factions? And if so, why are we only including the factions that help your case, instead of all factions involved?

You are treating this as a sports match, it's fucking not.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 5 days ago

Israel as the the colonial power who invasion colonizing Lebanon and other arab countries in a Greater Israel project is perfectly in the context . I included all the factions involved .

You are treating this as a sports match, it’s fucking no

I am not .You could have said Hezbollah has the right to resist Israeli occupation but let's not forget Hezbollah atrocities and I would not have a problem with it . Your framing delegitimize that right. I am sick of hypocrites trying to delegitimize resistance groups and treat them like colonizers.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

I included all the factions involved .

Yeah, right:

The context of the post is israel vs hizbollah. It that context the only agressor is Israel.

I am sick of hypocrites trying to delegitimize resistance groups and treat them like colonizers.

Hezbollah had the legitimacy of a resistance group until they defeated the Israeli occupation of Lebanon.

Continuing to fight Israel from Lebanese territory without the express consent of the people and the government of Lebanon delegitimizes them as resistance fighters.

And their support of Assad and his Alawite oppression of Syria made them colonizers in their own right.

In the example of WW2 that you brought up, Soviet forces were the resistance fighters against Nazi aggression and colonization right until the point that Germany surrendered. Their refusal to then withdraw made them the aggressors and colonizers in turn. And that is not even to speak of the Baltics, where the Soviets were the original aggressors and colonizers.

Acknowledging the capacity of resistance fighters to become colonizers themselves is not hypocrisy. What is hypocrisy is letting the aggression and colonization of a group slide because they are/were resistance fighters themselves.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 5 days ago

Hezbollah had the legitimacy of a resistance group until they defeated the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Hezbollah has legitimacy until Israel abandon the greater Israel projects and stop being a threat to Lebanon .

58% to 64% of the Lebanese population opposing Hezbollah's immediate disarmament unless a guaranteed national defense strategy is established which do not exists. The government and the Lebanese army is inept to project Lebanon

And their support of Assad and his Alawite oppression of Syria made them colonizers in their own right.

Yes Hezbollah aggressed and murdered some Syrian civilians and it is condemnable, fighting groups financed by other foreign powers was also a motivation but again the context is the colonial power Israel vs Hezbollah. You don't seem to understand the difference between colonialism and occupation either.

In the example of WW2 that you brought up, Soviet forces were the resistance fighters against Nazi aggression and colonization right until the point that Germany surrendered.

I was talking during WW2 against the axis not after Germany surrendered. I love how you also ignore France and Britain and only focus on the soviet. France did not wait for Germany to start aggressing it to declare and attacking war on the Nazis. Same with Hezbollah they will not wait Israel deciding to colonize before addressing the threat. Nobody would have used to the dumb rhetoric of both are aggressors , both are bad in context of world war 2.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 days ago

58% to 64% of the Lebanese population opposing Hezbollah’s immediate disarmament

Opposing Hezbollah's immediate disarmament is not equivalent to consent to enter the war of Israel against Palestine.

You don’t seem to understand the difference between colonialism and occupation either.

Just rolling with how loosely you seemingly use the term. Israel may be colonialists in general, but in the specific context of Israel vs Hezbollah they are clearly not.

I was talking during WW2 against the axis not after Germany surrendered.

Yeah, conveniently leaving out one of the greatest examples of a resistance fighting force becoming the occupying colonialists?

I love how you also ignore France and Britain

What about France and Britain?

France did not wait for Germany to start aggressing it to declare and attacking war on the Nazis

The French government being the democratically elected government representing the French people and territory signed an alliance with the Polish government. As such Germany's invasion of Poland was also an aggression against France, not the other way around. There is no such understanding between Palestine and Lebanon. Or Iran and Lebanon.

And sure, you could argue that Hezbollah are allied with the IRGC and Hamas, but Hezbollah is dragging Lebanon into the fight without consent.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 5 days ago

Opposing Hezbollah’s immediate disarmament is not equivalent to consent to enter the war of Israel against Palestine.

Why would 58% of Lebanese would support Hezbollah maintaining it's arm other than to be used against the Israeli threat?

Just rolling with how loosely you seemingly use the term. Israel may be colonialists in general, but in the specific context of Israel vs Hezbollah they are clearly not.

Israel want to create a greater Israel which include Lebanon. Hezbollah rocket was thrown on Shaba farms, Lebanese occupied land . It was not a mere support for Palestine. Not to mention Israel constantly breach the resolution 1701 yearly

The French government being the democratically elected government representing the French people and territory signed an alliance with the Polish government.

An alliance mean both side of the alliance has the obligation to protect the other when attacked but it doesn't mean an aggression on Poland is an aggression on France. France attacked Nazi Germany before Nazi Germany attacked . France had a treaty of Poland exactly because the threat was real , they didn't wait for the nazi to have one less resisting country because intervening. My last sentence was my main point because it is similar to Hezbollah not waiting for Palestine to be completely destroyed then wait for Israel to occupy and colonize Lebanon again.

If you think Hezbollah is dragging Lebanon into the fight without consent, then France dragged themselves into the war by signing a mutual defense alliance with Poland

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 days ago

Why would 58% of Lebanese would support Hezbollah maintaining it's arm other than to be used against the Israeli threat?

Oh fucking stop it. Threat against Lebanon specifically. A retaliation against Hamas, even if completely disproportionate and genocidal is not a threat against Lebanon.

Israel want to create a greater Israel which include Lebanon.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The complete Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon kinda works against that claim.

Hezbollah rocket was thrown on Shaba farms, Lebanese occupied land

Not according to the UN?

Not to mention Israel constantly breach the resolution 1701 yearly

Unlike Hezbollah?

waiting for Palestine to be completely destroyed then wait for Israel to occupy and colonize Lebanon again.

Extraordinary claims again

If you think Hezbollah is dragging Lebanon into the fight without consent, then France dragged themselves into the war by signing a mutual defense alliance with Poland

Unlike the French government, Hezbollah didn't have the representative authority to do so. Doing it without such an authority is in itself a form if aggression (against the people of Lebanon, not against Israel)

[-] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 3 points 5 days ago

Nitpicking is not an argument, it's hasbara.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

Nitpicking is not an argument, it's hasbara.

No, nitpicking is how you arrive at the truth. And the truth is that Israel are genocidal aggressors. But the truth is also that Hezbollah are aggressors.

Calling any criticism of Israel's enemies "Hasbara" is the exact same bullshit as Israel calling criticism "Antisemitism". Different side of the same shit coin.

[-] tacoplease@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

If you start from 2023

Wut? Israel has been attacking Lebanon for decades because of their "greater" Israel jerk-off fantasies.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 days ago

literally the next fucking paragraph in my comment.

[-] xxam925@lemmy.zip 2 points 4 days ago

Take this idf astroturfing back to Reddit.

Israel is the greatest evil on this planet and it isn’t close. No bridge is too far in eliminating them.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Yeah, it's not enough to call Israel genocidal fascists, have to agree with the hive mind or its IDF astroturfing.

It's funny, I came here in part because the zionist hive mind of Reddit was disgusting.

And all I'm finding here is a tankie hive mind.

Extremists on both sides, nuance not allowed.

[-] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 1 points 4 days ago

I'm just entering this whole thread just now.

Like, sure, I'll agree that Hezbollah have definitely not been a net benefit to Lebanese and they've used the resistance rhetoric to kill and assassinate Lebanese (civilian and politician alike).

But I can't say that they've ever been the aggressor against Israel. Even if you look at the 2006 war that 'started' with Hezbollah kidnapping Israeli soldiers patrolling the border, they did it with the purpose of negotiating the release of hostages that Israel held and tortured for many years after their withdrawal from their occupation of South Lebanon.

And to also try and compare glorified bottle rockets to the ultimately destructive bunker busters lined with uranium that Israel launches at civilian infrastructure in a non symmetrically proportionate response - it's not a 1:1 comparison and that needs to be highlighted and underscored.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

You've already been linked sources that debunk what your saying. Try reading up before talking out of your ass

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

The sources show that Israel is an aggressor, which I never disputed.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

If you start from 2023, then again, if you only look at Israel and Hezbollah, then Hezbollah are the aggressors

This is not true, which the sources show.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

Hezbollah, a powerful armed group backed by Iran, said it had launched guided rockets and artillery onto three posts in Shebaa Farms “in solidarity” with the Palestinian people.

That's what the sources say.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago
[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

Linked article disagrees with the info graphic, info graphic does not provide sources. What's your justification of choosing the info graphic over the linked article?

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago
[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 2 points 5 days ago

yeah, quote from that link

Since October 8, when Lebanon's Hezbollah launched attacks on Israel in solidarity with the Palestinian people

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

The graph includes attacks since Oct 7, and clearly Israel was the aggressor.

Not to mention that the first attacks of Hezbollah were on Israeli settler colonialist outposts within occupied Syrian territory.

Hezbollah is opposed to all Israeli settler colonialism, not only in Lebanon but also in Syria and Palestine.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 days ago

That idiot think Shabaa farms is israeli

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

They also can't comprehend that an aljazeera infographic has its dataset cited at the bottom, or the competency to even google search 'greater israel' and be presented with decades of documented evidence, among many other similar incompetencies.

Israel's smartest hasbara keyboard warrior, that's for sure

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

And the articles accompanying this graph clearly contradict it, while the graph itself provides no sources. A graph itself is not a source.

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[-] yesman@lemmy.world 17 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

It implies that Hezbollah are aggressors,

This is only coherent with the "history started on Oct 7" mentality. Hezbollah are terrorists, so is the IDF. Trying to decide who's in the moral right is madness, but who started it isn't complicated or ambiguous.

[-] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 days ago

Trying to decide who's in the moral right is madness, but who started it isn't complicated or ambiguous.

Asking who started it is the wrong question to ask. And the answer changes constantly depending on when you ask it.

Both should equally fuck off.

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this post was submitted on 12 May 2026
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