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this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
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I'd prefer peace negotiations.
How do you see those going?
How does Ukraine start negotiating with a country that has invaded theirs?
The same way anyone starts negotiating with anyone: open a dialogue and exchange demands, and then work to make concessions and compromises. They won't do that, though, because then the infinite money spigot from the US will shut off because America doesn't want this war to ever end.
You tell me where you live, I'll break into your house and steal half your stuff.
Instead of fighting back or calling the police, we can negotiate so I can have half your stuff. Sound good?
I dunno, do you have nuclear weapons that could cause the apocalypse?
Countries aren't people. The scale the work on is much greater.
Oh okay, so if I held enough people hostage I can have your stuff? Good to know...good to know...
You've got an important word there. Scale.
Countries aren't people but they're made up of them. It wouldn't take nuclear weapons to annihilate your household.
Russia has invaded Ukraine's home and tried to lay claim. Now you're suggesting they give up what was taken from them to satisfy your desire for peace.
The analogy the other person used is fair. In another analogy Russia is nothing more than a bully. We've long moved past the time where the advice we give is to just give the bully your money so they don't beat you up and take it anyway.
The thing with nukes is that it’s suicide, and they know it. So they just use the threat of it to get whatever they want, in the hopes that the people in charge are like you and will just flop over to their demands whenever they dangle the threat.
You think Ukraine should make concessions with the country that invaded them?
For the sake of peace, yes, I think they should be willing to make concessions. That's how negotiations work.
If you refuse to offer anything you aren't really negotiating. You're just making demands.
Oh yeah that worked so well for them in 1997 and 2014. Did people forget that peace negotiations have happened before and russia has broken the agreement every time?
Why would Ukraine or anyone for that matter take anything the russian federation says as not a lie? Also I think that in this case it would be stupid for Ukraine to allow russia any ability to regroup.
NATO broke the 1997 pact when it bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, in violation of the UN Charter.
In 2014 Ukraine's legitimate government was overthrown by the Euromaidan coup.
Before you screech your revisionist history at me, answer this: are you willing to fight this war until no one is left?
NATO is not Ukraine (yet), that makes about as much sense as say China getting to invade Iran because the UAE bombed north korea.
I would think popular uprisings like in 2014 against rich oligarch rule would be more up your alley. Really though that also does not work as much of an excuse to invade another nation state.
I think my screeching is quite pleasant compared to whatever mental gymnastics are needed to eat what you are selling.
Oh and as I said above, Ukraine gets to make the call on when they are willing to stop fighting. Not myself, not you.
"Popular uprisings"
i.e. western backed color revolution
Ukraine isn't allowed to make that call. If they do, America will stop supporting them.
Yes, clearly the mass protests and large scale political movement was just a ruse by the US, because as we all know somehow everything ever is always the US.
Thing is the only thing Putin wants is the eradication of all Ukraine.
This is a war of annihilation. There are no concessions.
Have a starting point from a man much more intelligent than I: https://youtu.be/mMZYKxgc9TE
(And a video he did 9 years ago: https://youtu.be/A2nklduvThs)
If someone came into your country and started to rape, kill and kidnap your people would you roll over and give them whatever they wanted to stop doing that?
Maybe we should break into their home and see if they want to start peace negotiations. Because nobody calls the police when that happens. Give us half your stuff and we will leave.
I doubt Ukraine will demand anything less than Russia pulling out of previous held lands. Russia will doubtless demand all lands it currently occupies (and maybe even ones it claims but does not occupy). Russia's demand could be cast as peace, though really it involves giving a massive portion of Ukraine to Russia. And if you're thinking that might be temporary... well, just ask Finland, which lost 9% of its territory to a peace agreement in the Winter War after the Soviet Union invaded them.
You don't have to guess. They did publish just those demands. https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-ukraines-peace-plan-can-help-end-other-wars/
By involving the same country that was responsible for setting up the scenario where it was invaded, and having that country also not go out of its way to cancel the peace talks that were going on, because they threatened its imperialist hegemony in the region.
Which is?
That vatnik is a troll, astroturfing for the Russian government, or an idiot. Whatever it is, really not worth engaging.
First time I’ve heard that term.
I like it.
I contrast to your username, which I greatly dislike <3
Oh yeah cuz Putin has just seemed so open to peace, dipshit.. it’s not like it hasn’t been tried about countless times. He doesn’t want peace, he just wants everything handed to him with zero consequence
id prefer HIMARS instantly raining down on every last invader without a white flag in the sky. fuck em and the cookers supporting the genocide
Okay you bloodthirsty maniac, and what happens when they retaliate with nuclear weapons?
What nuclear weapons? The fuel got sold for vodka money and the tritium has decayed away to uselessness with Russia giving up on producing more