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(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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The dismissal of tankies really bothers me.
Remember Iraq's WMDs? Remember how the intelligence reports were actually based on a Nicholas Cage movie called The Rock? Remember how this goofy story was nevertheless widely reported and believed, and America still invaded Iraq, and 2.4 million Iraqis still died? Remember how 4 in 10 Americans still think America found WMDs in Iraq to this day?
the Iraq WMDs story inundated western media. It was everywhere. And everyone believed it. And millions died as a result. Tankies and other leftists disagree mainly on what is western distortion and what is true. That is an important question to think about, not one to be dismissed out of hand. America does lie about its enemies, and it does have enormous resources for selling those lies to the public. And people die when those lies are believed.
"The dismissal of tankies really bothers me"
I am gonna make it easy.
If you are a holocaust denier, Stalin/Mao/Hitler/lenin fetishist or "defend" how they ruled their people then you are purposely keeping your eyes shut.
There is so so much literature to read and material to watch about these people that you actually have to actively dodge it to not know what they have done and some of the regimes that came from them are still doing.
Just because you are right about 1 thing doesn't mean that it validates every single believe that you have.
There are also enough people who are not the above who were against the invasion of Iraq and already foresaw why the US went there.
But this is the thing; It is your choice to believe the above. It literally is a choice, the truth is different. It is literally a choice to close your eyes towards history and the crimes authoritarian rulers and regimes are still commiting towards their citizens.
The western world is not perfect but there is a reason people are fleeing towards western nations and not the other way around.
Defending the genocidal western world in some contrarian bs over tankies is nothing but discussing. But please rationalize a million dead Iraqis, with this snobbish tone, you're probably correct.
You accuse me of defending the "genocidal" western world?
Which country started WW2 and the holocaust? I am gonna give you a hint it is 1 of the people I named in my post.
If you actually think I am defending anyone than you are not reading my post.
In which countries/campaigns most nazis died? Might shed some light over individual parties contribution to the fall of Germany in ww2.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_casualties_of_World_War_II
Doesn't change the fact the USSR allied with the Nazis and divided up Poland with them, and then came crying to the West for Lend-Lease aid when trusting Hitler backfired on them.
Engaging in historical revisionism to own the tankies.
Nothing I'm saying is untrue. Sources or GTFO.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was negotiated while Thalmann was rotting in a concentration camp. Stalin was actively censoring Soviet solidarity with Thalmann for a half decade because he believed the Nazis could be compromised with and didn't want to send the message that they supported a German political prisoner, even a Communist one. After years in the camp Thalmann was eventually shot in the back of the head on Hitler's personal order.
Seriously what point are you trying to make?
You are saying that Europe "rolled" over and effectively died when the Nazis were strolling in and most of the western nations were just apathically watching?
I agree with you. Good point to make. If the western nations were to make a stand earlier in Hitlers crusade than alot of hurt could be spared.
Even in my country there used to be enough people who were collaborating with the Nazis. We actually had a party who were actively promoting it.
My country also had the most jewish victims that were murdered by the Nazis. Three quarters of the total that lived in my country were brutally slaughtered.
It is the highest of all western nations.
I have read the literature and seen the documentaries.
So again what is the point that you are trying to make that I don't know about?
My point is that, by the single metric of crushing nazis, no warring nation topped the soviets.
Can't deny that the strongest opposition to nazis, by count of absolute death of nazis, was the socialists, not the democrats.
You agree western nations were lenient in the beginning, just like the soviets did what was diplomatically available to delay being attacked, until some industrial setup was available.
But by the end of ww2, counting the bodies, soviets get less credit than they deserve by western historiography.
Source: Wikipedia.
Doesn’t change the fact the USSR allied with the Nazis and divided up Poland with them, and then came crying to the West for Lend-Lease aid when trusting Hitler backfired on them.
"But by the end of ww2, counting the bodies, soviets get less credit than they deserve by western historiography."
Sounds more like a thing that you should pick up with your history teacher then.
WW2 in my country is a part of history that get's the most attention during history classes. Never has it underestimated the role of the Soviets in the WW2 in defeat of the Nazi's.
That doesn't mean that it validates the regime that it had during those years. Don't you have the ability to see the incidents in isolation or is your whole reasoning about this fact that because they killed the most Nazi's that the regime and whatever they did in Eastern Europe and their own borders are OK?
It is the same reasoning people make that Hitler is also quite a good guy because he designed the Autobahn (which is Nazi propaganda) that "improved" the lives of the people of Germany.
Just because a governing body of a country did good things for their country or had tendencies to make a right choice doesn't change the fact that they are and still can be pieces of shit.
I'm originally from a colonised country. I have reasons to be skeptical of dominant western speech and historiography.
I'm not validating every action of socialists, the same way I have to suppose you don't validate every action of the western nations. All governments are probably doing stupid shit, I support none.
I'm impressed by your statement that a governing body that had tendencies to make the right choice is/was a piece of shit, in contrast of generally defending governing bodies that apparently doesn't have tendencies of making the right choices in the economy realm, for most people. Evident by recent banks bailouts.
Adding to my point, we only know about stuff that happens outside western countries through the lenses of western media. Which is generally alright, where there's no state interest in the topics. And this specific topic, of socialism, alternative means of organising production and making politics is very sensitive to western countries, so they have to filter news, just like you'd expect China to do.
Also, thank you for a generally civilised conversation in a very heated sublemmit, I appreciate it. :)
Fixed that for you. That's what happens when you cozy up with Hitler trying to be his ally like a moron before realizing you fucked up. A long and proud history of shit decision making and then whining about it after.
Your useage of 'buts' is awfully similar.
I can't help that I like big butts and I cannot lie.