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this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2025
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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
Yeah, another great latin phrase…
Because if it’s Latin there must be meaning beyond meaning.
I wonder whether you read the linked article. Cause, wouldn’t you be embarrassed to use it then? A phrase from the late, late Roman empire, that the terrific idea obviously didn’t prevent from falling, largely in use in humanistic imperial societies, even manufacturing guns referencing the phrase, doesn’t make you pause?
Sure, lets throw all our weapons away and tell Putin to pretty please don't invade us... again. /s
I use the phrase because it I find it relevant in times like this, and yes I read the article, I actually first thought that it was Patton who coined the phrase "If you want peace, prepare for war", so that's why I linked the wiki.
of course you’d find it relevant, because you’ve been reading it over and over
Very telling that it's a Latin saying, lol. I wanna make peace with the living, not the dead!
well the russians view themselves as the third roman empire. putin is on justinian's mad quest to reclaim his empire's ancient capital. putin wants to be czar, but one of the aspects of being czar going back to ~800 years ago is holding the home of the Kievan Rus: Kyiv. just as the romans would not stop their outward expansion until confronted with the force to stop them, neither will the russians.
NATO has basically been on the same path since its conception (check the Nazis that ended up in NATO high command!), but of course, two wrongs don't make a right.
Who has NATO invaded?
Serbia but that was a good thing
Yugoslavia
While technically true, would you put that on the same level as Russia invading Ukraine?
Kinda. Both are imperialist actions. Both try to jpstify their imperialism with "defending" someone.
Did NATO not bomb Yugoslavia to stop an ethnic cleansing? The bombing campaign lasted 2.5 months, and as far as I'm aware, Yugoslavia was not occupied during or after this time.
Russia, on the other hand, is attacking and invading Ukraine (again), occupying and looting parts of the country, targeting and murdering civilians. The current "special operation" has gone on for almost 3 years, with no end in sight.
I find it hard to believe that anyone could find those two scenarios comparable.
Russia claims that it's stopping a genocide. Not claiming that they are correct. just that in every invasion in the history of the world the agressor had a justification ready of defending themselves or some weak ally.
I don't see how the length of a war has anything to do with the justifications of the invasion. Russia didn't have the military force to reach their goals against Ukraine which received aide from the west. Yugoslavia was in a significantly worse position against NATO without any allies that could help them significantly. How does that justify the invasion of NATO?
You asked for a comparable scenario and received an answer. Now you're trying to no-true-schotsman yourself out of your premise. Just stop.
It matters if one claim is true and the other isn't though, kinda important. Also, russia is stealing territory and have constantly given different bs reasons for what they are doing. NATO saw a genocide, halted it and left. These are not comparable at all.
Not if you're trying to understand why nation states are doing things and you're not incredibly naive.
Not really, I'm just still waiting for a comparable example.
Ok, moving the goalposts, then.
No, the whole point of this conversation, and my original comment, was to point out that Russia and NATO are not even in the same league as far as imperialistic tendencies. NATO has intervened to actually protect civilians. Russia just claims to be doing that while in reality murdering innocent men, women, and children by the thousands.
Your point of this conversation is to make a moralistic argument of how evil Russia is. Moralistic arguments don't really work when you're trying to understand politics.
I agree that Russia is committing atrocities. You failed to give a reason why this is happening, other than "they are evil".
You're telling me what my point is now, lol?
That's what you're doing.
If you read the comment that I was originally responding to:
... you'll see that I was addressing the thought that Russia and NATO basically have the same goals, (i.e. imperialism), which any thinking person can see is false.
What do youthink "imperialism" means?
Ok, I'm moving on now. Have a good day.
You too. Hope you learned something. Although I doubt it.
sounds to me like we should lend aid to the indigenous people fighting to protect themselves from imperial expansionism. just like in Palestine and Africa
You're right, but I feel like it's a bit more complicated than "NATO good, Russia bad", geopolitically speaking.
and you will note i have not said that.
The point isn't to make dead people. The point is to be a target too dangerous for a potential enemy to want to attack. It's to keep people alive, because if an enemy were to look at you they'd see you're ready to fight them and decide not to; at least, that's the idea. Some enemies are too stupid or careless that they'd do it anyway.