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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by Pro@reddthat.com to c/pics@lemmy.world
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[-] thoon@feddit.nl 12 points 1 week ago

Actual delusional vandalism. The sole reason this movement is frowned upon so much

[-] cabbage@piefed.social 87 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Lol, no, "the movement" is frowned upon by some because they want to finish up their genocide in peace.

America will soon be the only country in the security council not to recognize Palestine. This is America's genocide, not only Israel's. So of course some folks in America will be a bit touchy about people criticizing it.

Some red paint on a building is pretty mild compared to, I don't know, genocide? Whoever is more upset by this than by every single truck refused entry to or bomb dropped in Gaza needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

[-] kurwa@lemmy.world 65 points 1 week ago

"oh no those poor buildings" okay but you think child murder is fine lmao

[-] Lyra_Lycan 26 points 1 week ago

Not just the children, but the women and men, too

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 4 points 1 week ago

Never said that, never implied that. Simply stating that two wrongs dont make it right.

Should be common sense

[-] octopus_ink@slrpnk.net 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)
[-] thoon@feddit.nl 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I disagree with him?

Lmao. MLK isn't a Messiah. He also got things wrong. Such as this.

Edit: I thought MLK advocated for vandalism given this context. I was wrong. He did not, actually. Which only proves why vandalism isnt activism

[-] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 week ago

Ah yes. Thanks to your enlightened and superior views on political activism you've surely achieved enlightened and superior results to MLK...

No? Just defending genocide and attacking those who oppose it?

Weird....

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 2 points 1 week ago

You can use the same logic by far right racists back in MLK day:

"Thanks to your enlightened and superior views on political activism you've surely achieved enlightened and superior results to Jesus, right MLK?"

And that argument is just as retarded back in that day.

Lastly, talking about 'weird'. I find it odd that you put words in my mouth. Never have I stated that I defend said genocide, nor do I attack them? I simply state a fairly common opinion: dont destroy things.

[-] Schmoo@slrpnk.net 15 points 1 week ago

yeah, yeah, genocide is terrible and all but won't someone please think of the minor property damage! This doesn't help your cause.

signed, someone who can barely be bothered to give a shit about the cause.

Is this you?

[-] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 week ago

I don't think that comparison is in good faith. That being said Jesus and MLK DID achieve results, which proves their views on activism are both effective.

You argue your views on activism are valid, and even superior to MLK's views and yet you have nothing to show for it. Your unqualified armchair quarterback opinions aren't worth the storage space they use up.

The activists are fighting for something they believe in, they're doing it in a way that's effective enough that you're here commenting about it. I'm not going to sit here and criticize their efforts while doing nothing. That's just supporting the status quo which, in case you haven't noticed, is genocide.

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 1 points 1 week ago

Let’s cut to the chase. Comparing vandalism to the activism of MLK and Jesus is a false equivalence. Their activism was rooted in peaceful protest, not destruction. You claim vandalism works, so show me the results. How has breaking stuff actually helped the cause?

And let’s talk about your accusation that I’m supporting genocide. That’s a serious claim. I haven’t said anything close to that. Criticizing methods isn’t the same as opposing the movement. I simply believe, nay, KNOW that smashing windows isn’t the way to win hearts and minds. Just look at Just Stop Oil in the UK. Everybody fucking hates them.

You call me an 'armchair quarterback', but where’s your playbook? What are your strategies beyond just causing chaos? If we’re talking about effective activism, let’s see some constructive actions. Vandalism might make noise, but does it make change? I doubt it.

Let’s hear your constructive ideas for change instead of defending destruction. What’s your plan beyond breaking things? Because whining like a child might've worked when you were young. But we're adults now.

Christ I despise radicals

[-] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 week ago

Lol!

You're the one who juxtaposed the activists, MLK, and Jesus, not me. I even said you weren't doing it in good faith. Don't try to flip your own bullshit on me.

I never criticized anyone working hard to shed light on injustice. I have neither claims on what is "the right way" to do activism, nor accolades for my wondrous successes. I'm not whining or complaining about anyone doing actual work or trying their best to achieve actual results.

Your calls for me to prove what I never claimed ring hollow, but your silence on the proven effectiveness of your superior and enlightened methods screams loudly and reverberates far.

Almost as far as the chasm between your claim that you don't support genocide and your actions which appear to consist entirely of chastising anyone who takes steps to fight against genocide because "they're doing it wrong"

The only wrong way to fight fascism and genocide is not to fight at all. But you're going even further, you fight against those who do fight. Which is to say, you fight on the side of those who are committing genocide.

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 1 points 1 week ago

Your argument suffers from a fundamental failure to distinguish between the critique of activist methods and the opposition to the causes those activists champion. By conflating criticism of vandalism with support for genocide, you commit a straw man fallacy that betrays a lack of nuance and intellectual honesty.

Your comparison of modern activism to the nonviolent resistance of Martin Luther King Jr. and Jesus is a false equivalence that ignores the moral and strategic distinctions between peaceful protest and destructive behavior. MLK’s activism was grounded in the belief that nonviolence exposes injustice and appeals to conscience, whereas vandalism risks alienating allies and undermining community trust.

Your justification of any action against genocide, regardless of method, is ethically untenable. It violates Kant’s Categorical Imperative, which demands that actions be guided by universalizable maxims. Condoning destruction as a means to oppose genocide risks moral decay and social fragmentation, as history and ethical theory demonstrate.

Moreover, your reliance on whataboutism and tu quoque fallacies reveals an attempt to deflect substantive critique by attacking the critic rather than the argument. This rhetorical strategy is intellectually dishonest and undermines the possibility of meaningful dialogue.

In sum, your position fails to meet the standards of logical consistency, ethical integrity, and strategic effectiveness.

[-] octopus_ink@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You did an awful lot of arguing to demonstrate that you still didn't really read it, and by read I mean digest it, nor fathom why I suggested you start there.

Because you are defensively pearl clutching about entirely different things than the most relevant bit to your arguments here, which is how ridiculous and harmful it is for those in a position of privilege to clutch their pearls about whether the protest actions of those being actively harmed and killed might not be convenient in their timing or execution.

And when you reach the point of recognizing why such pearl clutching is actively harmful to others, instead of reflexively insisting it's not what you are doing, or insisting that it isn't harmful, quite a lot of other things will fall in place.

Good day.

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 1 points 1 week ago

Alright. In the fog of war, here is my entire take:

I must firmly disagree with your justification of vandalism as a legitimate form of activism. My position is grounded in fundamental moral and ethical principles, as well as historical and social analyses, which I will elaborate below.

At the core of my argument is the Kantian ethical framework, which posits that moral actions must be universally applicable and respect the dignity of all individuals. Vandalism, defined as the willful destruction or defacement of property, inherently violates this principle. It treats the property and rights of others as mere means to an end rather than as ends in themselves, which is a clear contravention of Kant’s Categorical Imperative. This moral law is unconditional and applies to all rational agents, meaning that vandalism cannot be justified by appealing to the supposed nobility of its cause or the privilege of those who criticize it

Vandalism involves an act of destruction that disrespects the rights of property owners and the broader community. It is an illegal act that undermines social cohesion and trust, which are essential for any functioning society. The fact that vandalism is often motivated by frustration or a desire to draw attention to an issue does not absolve it of its moral wrongness. Instead, it highlights the need for more constructive and respectful forms of activism.

Read here for more info:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-moral https://iep.utm.edu/kantview https://press.rebus.community/intro-to-phil-ethics/chapter/kantian-deontology https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/esg/kantian-ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantian_ethics

You suggest that criticizing vandalism is a form of "pearl-clutching" or a sign of privilege. I strongly disagree. Ethical criticism of vandalism is not about privilege or moral superiority but about upholding universal moral principles that apply to all people, regardless of their social position. Privilege does not invalidate the ethical critique of harmful actions; rather, it is the responsibility of all individuals, especially those with privilege, to critically examine their own biases and the implications of their actions.

The coin model of privilege and critical allyship emphasizes that focusing solely on the needs of privileged individuals can marginalize oppressed groups. However, this does not mean that privileged individuals cannot or should not critique harmful behaviors, including vandalism. On the contrary, it is through education, self-reflection, and dialogue that individuals can understand their privilege and work toward justice without resorting to destructive actions

Read here for more info: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373175555_Understanding_Privilege_and_Engaging_in_Activism_Elevating_Social_Justice_in_Social_Work https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-019-7884-9 https://www.dpag.ox.ac.uk/work-with-us/equality-diversity-inclusion/anti-racism-working-group/anti-racism-resources-march-2023-intersectionality-of-privilege

A fundamental ethical principle is that the morality of an action cannot be determined solely by its ends. Vandalism, even when committed in the name of a noble cause, involves illegal and destructive means that harm individuals and communities. The psychological and social effects of vandalism include increased fear, insecurity, and erosion of trust within communities. These consequences undermine the very social fabric that activists often seek to strengthen.

Historical and contemporary evidence shows that extreme protest tactics, including vandalism, often reduce public support for movements and provoke backlash. For instance, the Just Stop Oil movement’s vandalism of artworks and historic sites has been widely criticized and has led to negative public opinion, with surveys showing only 18% support for such actions. This alienation of the public and potential allies weakens the movement’s effectiveness and undermines its goals

Read here for more info: https://unherd.com/newsroom/just-stop-oils-activism-is-turning-into-blackmail/?lang=us https://impactnottingham.com/2022/10/just-stop-oil-is-vandalism-the-way-to-save-the-planet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Stop_Oil https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/just-stop-oil-extinction-rebellion-climate-protest https://blogs.qub.ac.uk/pb-happ/2024/04/22/are-the-just-stop-oil-protests-disruptive-or-democratic

The history of social movements, particularly the civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King Jr., demonstrates the power of nonviolent resistance. King’s philosophy of nonviolence was grounded in love, understanding, and a commitment to justice that sought to win the friendship of opponents rather than humiliate them. This approach not only achieved significant policy changes but also garnered widespread public support and moral authority. Which is wat I actually gathered from your source

Nonviolent resistance is far more effective in effecting social and political change than violent or destructive tactics. It attracts broad support, fosters trust, and builds lasting alliances. Modern activism that prioritizes shock value and media attention over constructive engagement risks alienating potential supporters and diluting the moral integrity of the cause

Read here for more infor: https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/civil-rights-leaders/martin-luther-king https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/nonviolence https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protests-lessons/ https://www.loc.gov/collections/civil-rights-history-project/articles-and-essays/nonviolent-philosophy-and-self-defense/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change https://mshistorynow.mdah.ms.gov/issue/the-civil-rights-movement-in-mississippi-on-violence-and-nonviolence https://repository.usfca.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1060&context=honors https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/us-civil-rights-movement-1942-1968 https://jcls.org/2022/01/18/mlk-jr-s-nonviolent-but-disruptive-activism https://southern.libguides.com/civilrights/nonviolentprotest https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/history/nonviolent-resistance-racial-relations

In closing, I want to reiterate my respect for the causes that vandalism often aims to support—such as climate justice or social equity. These are vital issues that demand attention and action. However, my disapproval of vandalism as a method is unwavering because it is wrong, harmful, and counterproductive. Vandalism undermines the moral fabric of society, alienates potential supporters, and distracts from the substantive goals of activism.

I urge a reconsideration of the justification of vandalism in favor of more constructive, morally sound, and effective forms of activism that respect human dignity and social cohesion. This is not only a matter of ethical principle but also of strategic efficacy in achieving meaningful change.

So I truly hope you are happy now given my extensive paragraph defending something that should be common sense. But alas, here it is.

Enjoy the rest of your day. Because this is plain stupid, and thank God I am not American

[-] octopus_ink@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 week ago

thank God I am not American

And by the way, the French are the ones who know how to get shit done. We've probably started too late to stop the slide before it gets really bad over here.

[-] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 week ago

The activists defaced the building of a group directly contributing to the genocide. Genocide is violence, and violence can ethically be fought through violence.

Peaceful protest is a good, ethical, and proven method. So is fighting fascists and their supporters directly.

Violently fighting fascists is always good, Kant agrees too, so does MLK and Jesus.

[-] octopus_ink@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Let me try one more time.

Do you think Angela Davis dodges this question, or do you feel she thoroughly, satisfyingly, answers it? It's not a long clip.

Because as best as I can tell, you will again decide that you decide how those being actively harmed should respond and what is an acceptable response from those people, and again characterize her response as advocating violence, rather than recognize how such a viewpoint does nothing but empower those who seek to oppress.

Every word she speaks is in support of her summation at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HnDONDvJVE

[-] 9bananas@feddit.org 6 points 1 week ago

... you DO realize Jesus literally "vandalized" a market, right?

like, Jesus actually did use property damage to make his point, when he trashed merchants property they had set up for sale in a temple.

soooo....maybe fuck off with this houlier-than-thou bullshit?

[-] kurwa@lemmy.world 16 points 1 week ago

The wrong of genocide far outweighs the "wrong" of some minor vandalism. It's justified when peaceful protests already happened and it still continues.

Frankly it's sick that you put these 2 things next to each other as if they are equal.

Absolute morality is not common sense, it's fucking stupid.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

A small price that nyp must pay for being a voice for genocide. Nobody was hurt

[-] BreadOven@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

Hmmmm.....no. Not very wise.

[-] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 46 points 1 week ago

No this is called a real protest. Protests that are quiet and don't bother anyone happen every day - and are ignored every day.

Here we are, talking about this one, like the rest of the nation.

[-] amino 23 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

if this is delusion then I don't wanna be sane. if opposing genocide means I'm insane then I don't wanna live in your reality.

may your blood-soaked hands eternally haunt you as you wake up from your nightmares every day and you can't tell the difference between dream and your "civilized" reality

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 2 points 1 week ago

Opposing genocide you can rightly do, I share that sentiment.

And never have I defended the genocide in Gaza.

Christ.

Is it really. REALLY that difficult to think: "Oh, genocide is bad. But we also shouldn't use vandalism"

[-] chortle_tortle@mander.xyz 17 points 1 week ago

we also shouldn’t use vandalism

Why?

[-] pyre@lemmy.world 16 points 1 week ago

WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE PROPERTY

[-] frostysauce@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Well then what the fuck should we use? Violence?

[-] thoon@feddit.nl 1 points 1 week ago

Your voices? Your money? Your attention?

Please consider those before you start going apeshit, thanks.

[-] tamal3@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

This isn't apeshit... Apeshit is wanton destruction. This is a calculated protest using red paint and thought-out messaging.

Also, why do we care about defacing a building when the same action has meaningfully called attention to complicit US media? NYC is cleanable; dead children in Gaza are non-recoverable.

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 5 points 1 week ago

The pearl-clutching over some relatively minor vandalism in response to the mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians is really out of touch.

Since people seem so fucking concerned about property damage, maybe we need to start discussing the "vandalism" of all the homes and other buildings in Gaza. Actually, I'm not even sure I would be comfortable doing that ironically as it would feel very disrespectful to the human victims.

[-] amino 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

i think all the anti-vandalism advocates should personally pay reparations to Palestinians so they can rebuild everything the Israelis vandalized

[-] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 week ago

We’ve been doing that for literally a generation now.

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

My suggestion since early 2024 has been to birthstrike: no more births in the U.S. and other complicit western nations until the children of Gaza are safe and Israel has been held accountable for their heinous acts.

This is especially relevant because younger people are the ones who are: most angry about this, the most politically disenfranchised, most applicable to a birthstrike due to biology.

People shit on me and my 100% legal, non-violent / non-destructive recommendation. To the point where I've had posts and comments removed and even faced bans. So I've simply stopped recommending it.

[-] amino 1 points 1 week ago

that would easily devolve into eugenics. that's most likely why people weren't comfortable with it

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Eugenics is something that is imposed, not self-selected.

I don't generally see the "quiverfull" people, or governments all over the world encouraging their people to have more kids (including financial incentives), getting labeled as eugenics.

[-] amino 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

imposed vs self-selected is a false dichotomy. if you ask a random tradwife whether she chose her lifestyle she'll emphatically reply yes. had she not been raised in a patriarchal cult, most likely not.

you're not following the right people if you don't see it. creating a white ethno state by turning women into incubators is textbook eugenics. so is antinatalism because it promotes toxic individualism and blames societal problems on individual choices.

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 1 points 1 week ago

so is antinatalism

Maybe so, but that's not what I'm talking about here. A labor strike isn't a call for people to become permanent NEETs. It has a set of conditions for an endpoint.

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[-] amino 6 points 1 week ago

says who? Israel? you're a collaborationist spreading Zionist propaganda for free

[-] kautau@lemmy.world 16 points 1 week ago

I can’t imagine seeing people protesting genocide and calling it a “movement.”

WWII certainly had big “movement” energy in that case, but it was mostly millions of troops moving on a nation that was also committing genocide, it was just bigger and more aggressive at that point

[-] peregrin5@piefed.social 1 points 1 week ago

there are zero troops moving on Israel

[-] TheTetrapod@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago

If fucking only.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 16 points 1 week ago

How is it "delusional"?

[-] Saleh@feddit.org 9 points 1 week ago

Actually the reason is government repression and concerted media efforts. People have been protesting peacefully for decades to demand human and international rights to be upheld for the Palestinian people. People have been seeking nonviolent means such as boycott and divestment, only to be met with campaigns accusing that of being "antisemitic".

[-] fantawurstwasser@feddit.org 1 points 1 week ago

You do not attack media outlets. That's it. Don't defend it.

[-] Olhonestjim@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

Vandalism > genocide to you, huh?

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