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Part of what I see with 50501/Hands Off protests is that they have a theme of "defending the Constitution" from Trump. This is really a somewhat conservative position and doesn't have much historical rigor to it.

Prof. Aziz Rana of Boston College Law School is having a moment on Jacobin Radio right now. His basic thesis is that the Constitutional order is so deeply antidemocratic that the left argued with itself and the liberals over whether to focus efforts on challenging it in the early 20th Century. In the broad sweep of history since then, Americans have come to view the Constitution as a sacred text, but in fact, that order is part of what gives the Republicans and the far right their advantages despite losing the popular vote.

The shorter interview: https://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html#S250424 (April 24, 2025)
The 4-part long interview: https://thedigradio.com/archive/ (see the Aziz Rana episodes starting in April 2025) - Part 4 isn't up yet.

So why should we venerate the Constitution, when it holds us back from real, direct democracy? I think part of what our liberal friends and family hold onto is a trust in the Constitution and the framers. They weren't geniuses, they were landowners worried about kings taking their property. Use these interviews, or Prof. Rana's book, to handle those arguments.

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[-] millie@beehaw.org 10 points 1 day ago

The Overton window is anchored by a series of landmarks. The most effective way to lose one of them, like the Constitution, is to start discussing whether it has merit.

Yeah. Why do you think that Lemmy, a markedly leftist platform, is so inundated with people talking about how useless all our imperfect tools for making the world slightly less authoritarian are? Why do you think they're trying to get us to abandon them rather than bolstering their support?

I've been saying this for months. The people who are trying to get the left to abandon the effective means we have for shifting the overton window to the left are right-wingers or being manipulated by right-wingers.

The people who spend their days banging away about how we don't have democracy, we've never had democracy, the constitution is useless, the democrats never accomplish anything, etc, are literally agents of the right whether they know it or not. But many of them probably literally do know it.

Why do we see this more on Lemmy than in real life or on other platforms? Because we're being targeted.

[-] spooky2092 4 points 1 day ago

The people who are trying to get the left to abandon the effective means we have for shifting the overton window to the left are right-wingers or being manipulated by right-wingers.

It's amazing how often I see someone proclaiming to have a deeply held belief only to turn around and immediately support a political pathway that is objectively detrimental to their cause and crow about how their position is the most moral while ignoring the 100% predictable consequences. Bonus points for them also arguing that picking the obviously better choice is wrong because both sides are the same, or the other person would have done the shit that only one of them was saying they'd do.

[-] manxu@piefed.social 8 points 1 day ago

Absolutely! I had the same impression with the Gaza protests. The Biden/Harris administration handled the situation absolutely horribly, but anyone who had watched #45 knew that things were going to get a whole universe worse for Gaza if Trump got reelected. And yet, there was that strange bombardment with "I can't vote for Harris because of Gaza" that seemed astroturfed.

[-] jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

In no material way has the gaza situation become worse. The only change is our president is no longer shaking his finger going 'oh no, bad isreal please stop' and is extending the prosecution to Palestinians in the US.

You sound like one of those people who stopped caring about the child cages soon as biden was the one doing it.

All harris had to do was say 'i will ensure american laws are enforced with respect to weapons sales to isreal' and her major campaign problem would have disappeared.

Wouldn't have helped with all her other shitty positions but at least we would have had a candidate who didnt support genocide.

Its not astroturfing when your candidate is so bad most people in her base dont actually support her but are voting against trump. Not a recipe for success.

We're getting exactly what we deserve atm for running genocidal candidates. Next time tell your candidate to get a fucking clue and not support a fucking genocide and maybe she'll win. Though i doubt it since shes a gaslighting fuck who doesnt give a shit about the working class. Her and biden cant disappear fast enough from the political sphere as far as im concerned

[-] manxu@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

You sound like one of those people who stopped caring about the child cages soon as biden was the one doing it.

That's interesting, because unlike so, so many of the people that took on the mantle of the righteous cause of the Palestinians, I've been talking about it since last century. The Palestinians have been mistreated since at least the 80s, and in an ongoing fashion for now 40 years.

Did I hear anyone on the American left complain about it until 2023? Not really. It was really lonely in that camp. It somehow feels that if it hadn't been for TikTok taking up the cause, this would have been another one of those times when Palestine is forgotten.

I am delighted that Palestine has gotten more attention, and I am very hopeful that somehow the situation can be stabilized and improved for a people that has suffered way too much. But not preventing Trump from taking power was honestly a very bad thing to happen for Palestine.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 6 points 1 day ago

but anyone who had watched #45 knew that things were going to get a whole universe worse for Gaza

In what way exactly? So far it's just a little more of what they've been doing since October 7th. Gaza was not a distinguishing factor between Republicans and Democrats in November unless you consider genocide with rainbows a distinction.

And yet, there was that strange bombardment with "I can't vote for Harris because of Gaza" that seemed astroturfed.

You do realize that there were multiple large real-life movements about exactly that right? Like it or not that shit was real.

[-] manxu@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

I guess you have never heard of Mahmud Khalil then, or any of the other students arrested simply for speaking out about Palestine.

Nothing prevents an astroturfed movement from attracting real life supporters. I saw the genuine anger and upset at the protests. The problem is that it was all very convenient for Trump and his people. They were absolutely delighted at the self-inflicted vote suppression.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 2 points 1 day ago

I guess you have never heard of Mahmud Khalil then, or any of the other students arrested simply for speaking out about Palestine.

That's not a Palestinian problem; that's an American civil rights problem. It has absolutely zero impact on conditions in Palestine.

The problem is that it was all very convenient for Trump and his people. They were absolutely delighted at the self-inflicted vote suppression.

Not everything you dislike is astroturfing.

this post was submitted on 30 Apr 2025
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