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this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2025
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"I think people should have respect" isn't something you can say when the thing that follows is a list of arguments to exclude those very same people.
Even your framing highlights why trans folk are so frustrated. You talk about women's safety, as if trans women aren't part of that discussion, and on top of that, you completely brush over the fact that trans women are even more likely to be victims of violence and sexual assault than cis women.
And your response is that trans folk should just be OK with that, they should just compromise by accepting that their needs are viewed as less important than the needs of cis folk, and just silently accept exclusion.
The truth is, rights are won through social push back and confrontation. They are fought for, because they don't just get handed over otherwise. Especially when there is political capital in exclusion.
I'm also going to highlight that despite engaging with you in good faith, you almost certainly haven't become more accepting, and in fact have most likely become more entrenched in your position as you consider comebacks to my points.
That's why
You do. You are suggesting that trans people should offer to exclude themselves and give up our rights, because demanding equality is too much.
Giving up some of our rights, rights that everyone else has, to appease the folk who enjoy those rights, when we are the ones more at risk of violence, and exclusion is not a viable middle ground like you seem to be implying it is.
Your framing of that as "all or nothing" means I very much disagree with you. You may think trans folk deserve rights and dignity, but you don't believe trans people deserve the same rights as cis people
Yes there is. I asked you what you think compromise looks like in real world terms
You replied with this
That is quite explicitly a suggestion. Or rather, two suggestions.
In this suggestion, you use the word "women" as if it doesn't apply to trans women. ie, you say "women's safety" when you clearly means cis women's safety. Dangerous, because it normalises the attack on trans women that they aren't women. And dangerous because it implies that trans women are a risk to cis women, when in fact, trans women are more at risk of sexual assault and violence than cis women are! There is danger here, but it's not coming from the trans women, and framing it as if it is, and as if that is something that should be compromised on is dangerous to trans people.
There is no compromise, when that compromise involves having our safety ignored, and our rights rolled back. That's not compromise.
I very much understand that. However, this conversation is a classic example of the fact that even being told those statistics and having the context made clear, doesn't actually change anything.
There are. Lots of them! It's why I am defensive with you, because despite the existence of folk like that, you don't see them, and instead categorise trans people as largely being "all or nothing". You are part of the group you were just talking about. The group that isn't exposed to the right content, and instead, only knows what they see in an actively transphobic media and social media environment.
And as I said earlier, you won't shift your opinion, you won't ease off and stop fighting me, to become one of those people that helps trans folk. Instead, you'll fight me, for daring to take issue with your framing of the situation, whilst blaming me for it at the same time.
That's our common ground right there. Yet instead of talking about that, you're suggesting that actually, giving in and being ok with some of those rollbacks might be ok, as long as its trans people!
If you want allyship against facism, focus on the facism, rather than demanding that your allies capitulate to it
When you said we should accept our removal from sports, and that we should be open to exclusion from the ability to use bathrooms in public.
As I said though, this conversation is an example of why you don't see the behaviour you're asking for. It's because the responses always look like yours.
The right being lost isn't the right to play sports. It's the right to equality.
And it's great that your for something that isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. But in the mean time, trans people have to navigate the situation we do have.