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F**k Amazon, part 2
(lemmy.world)
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"I'm not sure how this frame could be taken that way"
yes, you are:
"Bugs Bunny has plenty of [racism] in other cartoons"
it sounds like you do understand that cartoon is racist. you said it.
why associate the right to repair with a racist cartoon when there are so many not racist cartoons?
especially when bugs is such a capitalist mascot, and you're trying to make this communist.
doesn't make sense why you would choose that specific frame to associate with Communism (which many people associate with China) from that specific cartoon that is known for Asian racism to promote right to repair.
like, use Donatello fixing a gadget.
or Dexter.
or inspector gadgets niece whatever, or that mouse girl from that show... I think her name is gadget.
none of them have racist associations that you, yourself are aware of and yet are promoting.
"reactionary"
you are using this word incorrectly.
you are literally the reactionary here.
I'm advocating for political and social reform by asking people to be less racist and more culturally aware.
you're opposing this reform, and are thus, by definition, a reactionary.
"imaginary"
here's one of the very well known racist cartoons starring bugs:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugs_Bunny_Nips_the_Nips
No.
You're doing none of this.
You're retroactively applying the motivations of some of the writers of a cartoon to the entire body of work, as well as to somebody taking a single frame out of context.
You ain't advocating for shit; you're advertising your own high opinion of yourself and disdain for others. You have petty insults, and actually applaud yourself for thinking that is advocating reform.
Your entire game is reacting to anything you disagree with. You are the perfect example of the word.
And even if I were opposing social reform (which I'm not; I'm trolling morons on a forum), that's not what reactionary means. Because reactionary behavior exists everywhere on the political spectrum; it has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are "left" or "right". And guess what? Gaslighting is another common tactic of reactionaries. Oops.
nope, I said none of that. you're playing make believe.
I'm advocating for social and political reform through racial sensitivity, you are "reacting" against that reform.
you're a reactionary.
You seem to have skipped over actually explaining how this meme is racist... Afaik it's just one of those exaggerated stretched frames from animation used to animate motion which is why it looks funny. The scene of the cartoon has nothing to do with race, and could just as easily be replaced with any other exaggerated cartoon frame.
If your sole complaint is the addition of the hammer & sickle, then no amount of substituting of bugs bunny with other cartoons will make a difference.
Maybe being more specific about your complaints would help, instead of going with "you know why it's racist". Also you specifically quoted the question of how this specific frame was racist with "you know how", so you really gave the impression that you thought something contained in the image was racist.
So your only complaint is that bugs bunny as a whole is racist and that makes the meme racist? That's your issue?
And ml has been my instance of choice since before shitjustworks and world existed. Not sure what your point is. Does your accusation apply to world, cafe, and ee considering people from all of those instances also seem to agree or do you just have beef with ml?
read my comment if you don't understand instead of just making things up and extrapolating.
the racism and subsequent cultural insensitivity is explained very clearly and everybody else who has commented understands it.
I read:
Which tells me that you do believe that this frame is racist. If you didn't mean that when the other commenter interpreted you as saying that, then you missed your opportunity to make yourself clear.
Regardless, I don't think a cartoon character having some racist episodes is equivalent to the character itself being racist, and I definitely don't think it means that character shouldn't be used for anything. It seems like you don't make that distinction (again, here's an opportunity to clarify your position if that is inaccurate).
"which tells me..."
literally the next sentence explains your out of context quote.
read all of the comments and the whole of each comment if you're going to respond to them.
right now you're just making things up or assuming things and then extrapolating on your make believe.
as long as you keep making things up, I'm going to point out the things that you're making up.
I did read that part too :) however it doesn't logically follow that if you recognize that some episodes are racist that this makes this frame also racist. That is the logical leap you have yet to explain.
It seems you are much more interested in accusing others of making assumptions than you are at actually clearing up any misunderstandings in what you are saying - which I don't think I'm particularly unjustified in saying is a self inflicted problem.
You know you can actually just reply with "Hi, I didn't actually mean that but here's how I am considering this specific frame as racist" instead of getting all aggro. You know you have an actual chance of communicating your point when people ask you to clarify - yet instead you seem all to eager to throw that away. You're really shooting yourself in the foot in this discussion.
"it doesn't logically follow...this frame..."
of course it doesn't, that's something you made up.
I don't need to clear anything up for your imaginary argument.
"how i am... considering this...racist".
very clearly laid out above, you're the only one pretending not to understand.
you can keep trying to change what I said, but the public record is above so it ain't gonna work, Jack.
Since you seem to think I am pretending to misunderstand you, I'll lay it out nice and simple and ask yet again for you to correct me where I am assuming wrong. Let's break it down:
When you reply to them saying they aren't sure how you could take this frame as racist by responding with "yes you are", are you not saying that "you know how this frame is racist" and therefore stating that you believe this frame is racist?
"I'll lay it out..."
and then you literally repeat your false assumption and extrapolation.
again, not going to get you anywhere.
you are either not reading or ignoring my comments before responding to them. all you have to do is read what you are writing carefully and what I wrote to find 1) your fabrication or 2) my very clear explanation and OPs admission of the racism that he and others are not bothered by, while I am.
I'm not sure if you're looking for 1 or 2, although yes it does seem like you're just pretending not to understand either since both of them are written so clearly.
if you actually have such severe trouble with reading comprehension and can only fixate on single sentences taken out of context:
once you realize which part of your question you are fabricating that is not in my comments, as it is the foundation of your atgument, you'll notice how you're invalidating your own questions and argument.
I'm literally making the extrapolation in order to ask you if I understand correctly - literally so that you have the opportunity to correct my interpretation of your position before I get too far into responding - yet you seem extremely unwilling to engage with it besides saying that I am still misunderstanding you.
It sounds like I initially misunderstood you to be saying that you believed this specific image was racist - it would have been a lot faster for you to just say that I interpreted your comment wrong instead of accusing me of malice and avoiding any clarification that could tell me what part of my assumption was wrong.
If you do not believe this specific frame is racist but it's solely the problematic episodes that make this use problematic, you can just say so. There is nothing wrong with being misunderstood, that's not on you and any fair person wouldn't hold that against you. But if you never actually clarify then there can be no discussion. Unless you prefer that people continue to misunderstand you. Genuinely trying to be charitable here by trying to hear out your reasoning, but it feels impossible to actually discuss anything when any every attempt to understand what the other side is met with "you are being obtuse and/or deliberately misunderstanding and all I will say is keep reading my existing comments". That gets us nowhere, and I honestly think you would have been better received in this comments section if you weren't so defensive.
"literally making the extrapolation in order to ask you if I understand correctly"
there is no reason for you to fabricate, assume or extrapolate in order to ask if you understand something correctly.
you are taking those extra steps so that you can repeat your false assumptions and extrapolations.
but again, the record is above.
"...trying to be charitable..."
no you are not, you are repeating a false accusation so that your false questions look valid, despite their lack of foundation in the material.
"trying to hear out your reasoning"
my reasoning is very clearly laid out in the above comments.
if there is something you genuinely don't understand, you can directly ask about those comments you don't understand without any attached assumptions or fabrications.
don't make things up, stop extrapolating on the things you make up and ask a direct question.
or take a hike.
Sure, but I'm not asking if I understand your conclusion correctly, that's very clear that you find Bugs Bunny problematic. I'm asking what your reasoning is to connect some racist episodes to the whole character / cartoon being a problem, yet you refuse to give it, so I have to resort to guessing and asking you if I'm correct. You can attack me all you want for trying to figure out what your reasoning is but it really comes off poorly when you are the one who is hiding the reasoning and then accusing anyone who is trying to figure it out of fabricating things. That's exactly why I asked if I understood correctly very directly like so:
Yet you gave no response.
Again, you call my attempts to clarify your position "false accusations and extrapolations", yet never actually set the record straight.
Is asking you how "if you recognize that some episodes are racist that this makes this frame also racist" is making a false accusation and not asking a genuine question for further explanation, then I don't know what to tell you my guy.
All I've gathered so far is that you believe that because some Bugs Bunny episodes are racist, it should not be used anywhere. I have been attempting over the course of this entire discussion to get you to clarify anything deeper than that, such as how you draw the connection between some episodes being racist and the entire character being inappropriate for any use, but every attempt I have made to get you to add more details behind your thought process has been basically met with "you should already understand my position" and every attempt to propose a plausible reasoning for you to either agree or correct me on has been met with "you are maliciously assuming my position which I will not clarify beyond my initial position of Bugs Bunny being racist and this use being problematic".
That is exactly what I have been doing. Are you genuinely saying that these statements appear to you to be malicious assumptions and fabrications and not attempts to directly ask you about things I don't understand? You have not responded to a single one with an actual clarification aside from accusing me of making false accusations without actually setting me correct.
I'll try this again
My question for you is: is your complaint that the existence of some racist Bugs Bunny episodes makes any usage of the Bugs Bunny character problematic? I am not assuming or fabricating this, I am asking you if this is the correct interpretation of your complaints. If you can't give a straight answer then there is no way I can provide a response.
This is pretty uncharitable tbh.
"I'm asking what your reasoning is beyond there being some racist episodes"
no you are not.
"so I have to resort to guessing"
no you don't, you can always ask directly rather than attempting to mislead the conversation and my reasoning first.
"hiding the reasoning"
my reasoning is very explicit, specific and publicly available above.
you want to pretend it is not, that's your problem.
"the record straight."
my reasoning is very explicit, specific and publicly available above.
your reading comprehension and fear of asking direct questions is your problem.
"me of making false accusations without actually setting me correct."
this is the proper way to deal with leading questions based on fabrications.
if you want to ask a serious, direct question, try it without fabricating beforehand and then asking leading questions.
dare ya.
This is literally a false accusation and a misinterpretation of my comment, literally what you are accusing me of. Plus, I literally asked you exactly what your reasoning is:
Bro, is this not direct enough for you?
Again you are dodging answering by throwing accusations instead of doing the charitable thing and just clarifying yourself.
Let me try to find your reasoning. Literally the last comment you made that has any substance was 6 comments ago:
So I see:
I have re-read every comment you have made, including the 6 prior ones that provide no additional substance, and I see no mention of what your threshold is for determining that the entire character or cartoon is racist or how you reason that some episodes taints the entire franchise.
Do I really need to re-include again the list of very direct questions I've asked so far which you have been dodging?
I think your first mistake is assuming that a question is an accusation. Have you never heard of re-stating someone else's opinion to ask if you understand it? You have some serious persecution complex if simply asking if your view is xyz based on my best attempt to read and understand your comments is viewed as an attack.
Again, you completely ignored the serious and direct question I just asked:
In case you need some reading comprehension help, this is what a question looks like.
"is this not direct enough"
disclaiming a question with 20 paragraphs of fabrication and misattribution is not "direct enough", no.
"Let me try to find your reasoning."
sure, why not keep guessing instead of asking directly?
working out well for you so far.
"So I see..."
you assume.
"if simply asking if your view is xyz"
you should try this!
maybe without all the misleading disclaimers.
good luck.
Third time's the charm?
took you nine comments to get there, not three, but good work.
"is your complaint..."
nope, but that doesnt help.
Hmm well your lack of any substantive answer leaves me no option but to guess again - it's definitely your imperative if you want to be intentionally obtuse though. You shouldn't be surprised when people don't receive you well.
If the racist bugs bunny episodes isn't what makes Bugs Bunny as a whole problematic to use in a meme, then what is the reason in the first place to complain that Bugs Bunny is racist and shouldn't be used? Again I go back to the fact that the only things you have mentioned is the fact that it's racist and that it shouldn't be used. I'm still looking for an answer to how exactly the two are connected, if you'd be so kind to enlighten me :)
"no option but to guess again"
you are incorrect again, you should just try asking.
you got your first answer last time by asking a direct question.
"shouldn't be surprised"
I'm definitely not surprised.
"I go back to the fact that the only things you have mentioned is the fact that it's racist and that it shouldn't be used"
not a fact, although not using a racist cartoon in favor of a not racist cartoon is certainly good reasoning.
the full reasoning is explained above I think twice although I'm going check because it would be really - nope all the comments are still up there; for some reason you're pretending not to see them.
Do you not have eyes?
I asked that exact question 3 times, and it's structurally identical to every other time I asked "so is xyz the problem that you have with using this cartoon?", so either you just forgot to have a stick up your ass about how people ask questions or you're just being difficult.
I literally quoted every time you said something about your thoughts on this issue, but you already handwaved that away with:
What do you want me to do? Look at your previous messages? I did and you accused me of guessing.
Please, let me know whether I've missed a relevant comment that you made that clarifies this:
"Do you not have eyes?"
i do, I told you I just made sure the reasoning was still written out and publicly available, which it is.
"structurally identical..."
wow, your structures are identical with or without 20 disclaiming paragraphs of misattribution.
no wonder you have such difficulty asking direct questions.
"literally quoted every time you"
you certainly haven't.
" and you accused me of guessing. "
nobody "accused" you, you said "i have to guess".
and then you guessed.
I pointed out that there is no point in guessing when you can ask direct questions.
What comment did I miss that provides clarification on your reasoning behind some episodes being racist meaning that the cartoon is not appropriate? Your silence is deafening.
"your silence is deafening."
I responded to every single comment, even your fabrications and extrapolations, correcting your mistakes every time.
I have no obligation to hold you by the hand here.
if you want an answer, stop whining about how difficult questions are to ask and stop fabricating things.
Respectfully and directly ask a question without misleading disclaimers or insults.
if you just want to keep insulting and attempting to mislead me and rewrite my comments, I'm happy to indefinitely correct you and play the game.
Right, so a non answer again. You sure love not answering questions.
not nearly so much as you adore not asking questions and expecting answers.
Is that what the kids are calling a discussion these days? As interesting as it's been seeing you show your whole ass, I'm gonna ask you to disengage since you are unwilling to have a productive discussion.
"a discussion"
whatever you have convinced yourself of, making things up and then asking misleading questions based on your imagination is not a discussion.
Bugs isn't imitating an Asian person in the original. He's yelling at Elmer. "I AM A WABBIT!"