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Palestinians starve as Israel continues full ban on humanitarian aid
(www.middleeasteye.net)
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this post was submitted on 29 Mar 2025
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What Hamas did is very excusable.
https://www.cjpme.org/fs_236/
They killed and kidnapped civilians which isn’t excusable. It would have been excusable to attack the military, not civilians.
I don't like to get into this debate because it's pointless this late in the game, but here goes:
1-If you're going to fight apartheid, you will have to play dirty. Yeah yeah hostages bad, but Palestinian detainees (which are, to be very fucking clear, also hostages) won't be freed by vague platitudes and appeals to the rules of war. They can be freed by hostage exchanges, which need hostages on your side to exchange. Those who make humane revolution impossible make inhumane revolution inevitable.
2-The deaths on October 7th are not solely deliberately Hamas-inflicted. There's a whole host of people who died in the crossfire, either by Hamas or Israeli fire, and many who were killed by Israeli friendly fire. Look up the Hannibal directive.
3-They did attack the Israeli military. 33% of people killed during the attack were military or security forces, and if you look up the towns they attacked on October 7th (which isn't hard to do; there's a list on Wikipedia) you'll see that almost every one has an IDF base. I can't tell you how much because nobody involved cared to run that sort of analysis and Israel had unqualified people do work that was crucial to that sort of analysis (these are the same people who made later disproven mass rape allegations).
Understandable, yes.
Predictable, yes.
Deserved, yes.
Effective, perhaps.
Excusable? No.
Are we really debating whether it’s okay to rape / kidnap / slaughter civilians?
For the rape* and slaughter part, obviously no. I'm not denying the actual atrocities that Hamas committed during the attack; they did rape and murder civilians and heads need to roll for that.
For the kidnapping part, the question still remains: What else were they supposed to do? Under the assumption that all lives are equally valuable, I see no reason to denounce taking hostages unless there was another effective way of gaining leverage to negotiate with Israel. Otherwise the only options left for the resistance are to give up or fight fire with fire.
Edit: *Apparently the rape part is completely made up.
Hamas did not rape any civilians. This is recently been fully debunked. The Israeli october 7 investigator said there was no evidence of any rape happening.
Any rape at all? I thought they'd only confirmed that no mass rape happened? If I'm misremembering that's great.
Absolute zero. Everything was made up.
Lmfao lemme just go cry for a second. More seriously what the fuck Israel? I mean we all know the answer to that question but still, what the fuck Israel?
Palestinians heartily agree with your “what else are we supposed to do” notion and long since stopped waiting for the world’s moral courage to come to their rescue. When they did that they also said that they no longer cared what anyone thought of the morality of their actions. They don’t need them to be excusable by us and frankly they aren’t. I’m past excusing anyone involved in this conflict.
Do you really tjink the October attacks gained them any “negotiating leverage?”
Given how thousands of detainees have been freed since October 7th, I think the answer is yes. That said I'm pretty sure even they didn't expect the Israeli reprisal to be this big, so this whole thing is in a way one big miscalculation.
More than 33% military without counting all Israelis as IDF reservists which they have proven to be over the last year.
And the kidnapping is done becsuse it is the only way to get their own people free. Israel has been kidnapping Palestinians for decades in far larger quantities. Hamas doing to same thing back should not raise eyebrows.
Israel killed a Palestinian child they kidnapped recently. Did not even make the headlines.
These the same civilians letting genocide happen right next to them? They have just as much blood on their hands.
Armed struggle != war crimes. One does not justify the other. The October attacks were like 5% achieving military objectives, the rest mindless slaughter, to the point where one can legitimately question whether the military objectives were not completely incidental. Hamas could have bee-lined for as many IDF outposts as they could, they didn't, they shot up Hippie Kibbutzim of all places. (Which is also why Netanjahu and triply so the Kahanites don't care about the hostages: They're by and large lefties).
Same, of course, goes for the IDF and what they're currently doing. If both sides kept to not even self-defence but only military objectives there might actually be peace in sight.
Hasbara. Hamas wanted hostages and had no incentive to commit "mindless slaughter" - they're not mindless demons. It's likely the majority of the deaths were from the Hannibal Directive, which is why Israel won't let the UN conduct an investigation.
May be the case, we'll probably see when the dust has settled. OTOH, it's still a war crime to abduct non-combatants so my point stands. And no, reservists aren't combatants.
The hostages aren't even particularly valuable because the Israeli government couldn't give less of a fuck about hippies who do things like protecting the Palestinian olive harvest from settler interference. Nab an in-service right-wing IDF commander off the street and you have something much more valuable and it's a legitimate prisoner of war.
Or, differently put: Don't get your strategic and tactical advise from the Russians of all people.
The dust has very much settled and Israel is very much refusing to release the numbers.
The best illustration is probably this one. Why do you think all the holes are in the car roofs?
Israel doesn't give a fuck about any of its people, whether they're civilians or soldiers. There'd be no difference if the kidnapped were all soldiers.
Also the thing about international law is it has to apply to everyone or it doesn't exist. Israel, by not following internatonal law, has forfeited its protections. Hamas simply followed the same rules of war that Israel does. Israel brought this on themselves.
The going rate is 1:1027 for an NCO.
Different administration controlled by a different party and before they reformulated the Hannibal Directive in 2016.
That said, Hamas probably did make a strategic mistake by thinking Israel would give a shit about its people, but in so doing they also achieved another strategic objective - the heightening of contradictions within Israeli society by showing Israeli citizens how little their government cares about them and how willing it is to kill them for a strategic advantage. They also managed to show the world that Israel is a rogue state and it has become more isolated than ever before as a direct result.
We'll see how this works out in the long run, but don't discount Oct 7th as a failure just yet.
Months? More like decades. We're at more than half a century of this shit by now.
To be fair (???) they did need the hostages so they needed to go to the kibbutz anyway, but yeah too much mindless slaughter. I will note though that by casualty numbers alone we're looking at 33% achieving military objectives rather than 5%. Same difference but yeah.