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this post was submitted on 13 Mar 2025
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As another Canadian: I hate the US government, oligarchs, the loss of separation between church and state, and fascists. The US government has had terrible and negligent policies for much longer than the last 2 months. It's just now there's not even attempts to mask it and not nearly enough official resistance to it. America is being gutted beyond recognition as the same entity it was. I can empathize with what is, frankly, a rant from in4apenny even as I downvoted their post.
However I have many American friends I do NOT hate, and who do not hate me or covet my country. I do NOT agree with the "fuck everyone, you're all a blight" position. I could write many arguments why, but the most important one is for many decades our countries have been stronger for being allies. If I want Canada to be the greatest nation it can be I have to recognize the contribution of a friendly USA that existed basically uninterrupted until two months ago. I 100% support the "elbows up, fight back hard" movement that is sweeping my nation, but with an eye for historical context of shared success. I hope for a return to that friendship when/if you folks manage to restore sanity. But that restoration is either going to be very messy or not happen at all, so we'll see if the elbows ever get to come down again.
Like selling our oil 20% below the price for comparable oil on international markets, the continued Americanization of our media and culture, numerous instances of fighting over our arctic sovereignty, the erosion of generic drugs via patent extensions for the benefit of American pharma, pushing for the dismantling of one of our greatest technological accomplishments (Avro Arrow) to favor US products, and numerous cases of American companies using NAFTA to bully the government to allow the destruction of our environment because they aren't that bad see Lone Pine Resources v. Canada or Ethyl Corporation v. Canada.
This has always been a shit relationship, it's just more obvious now.
Most of Canada's oil is heavy oil that doesn't compete well with the lighter oil on international markets due to difficulty in transportation and refining. It is shipped to the US by train, and refined in the US which has costs associated with it. I couldn't find a source saying that Canada would be 20% better off shipping to our other export targets like the EU. I'm willing to be taught a lesson by such sources.
I'm guessing you're arguing that trade with the US makes drugs expensive. Canada protects drug prices as part of our single-payer system. We negotiate prices nationally and thus pay close to what other OECD nations pay. Re: patents - I could very well be missing something, but wouldn't such patents exist regardless of trade agreements? If we could buy generic analogs of patented drugs then surely we can regardless of patents. If we can't get generic analogs then how does cancelling trade agreements make patented drugs cheaper? If you are just saying that US big pharma sucks then I totally agree, but I don't see how ending our agreements fixes that.
Americanization of media and culture isn't just a Canadian problem that stems from our close relationship to the US. Things like radicalization and swings towards autocracy are happening in democracies (and other systems) all around the world regardless of level of direct US influence. I don't think it's fair at all to say that if we didn't associate with the US that our society would be free from US-style problems.
I can see that NAFTA has caused instances of ignoring environmental damage. I will say that as far as I can tell by looking it up, the Lone Pine Resources v. Canada case was decided against the corporation, in which case the destruction you mention was not allowed. "On November 21, 2022, the NAFTA tribunal found that revocation of mining rights around the St. Lawrence river did not amount to an expropriation, considering that Claimant retained other mining rights. Tribunal majority also dismisses MST claim." Unless I'm reading that wrong (definitely a possibility) in that case NAFTA officials actually stopped environmental damage. Plus let's face it, provinces like Alberta and Ontario do not need NAFTA pressure at all to make large-scale environmentally harmful choices. I'm not convinced Canada would have refused to exploit resources if free trade wasn't a thing.
As far as the relationship being shit, there's a lot of experts who say it's beneficial. If nothing else it has created TONS of jobs for Canadians and been a bedrock of our economy across many sectors.
For oil, one has to understand that the fixed costs for operating the network are substantial so there is a lot of ability for price making by the purchaser. The price of WTI serves as an effective cap for WCS.
https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/5e6f425a-e1c7-441a-9aa0-64890e4ecade/resource/b7080f88-f748-45f0-8294-81d32a7a834c/download/13-Explaining-oil-price-differentials-formatted.pdf
The price of WTI is artificially low due to the 3/4th of a TRILLION of USD that has been pumped into oil subsidies.
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-proposals-to-reduce-fossil-fuel-subsidies-january-2024
For pharma, it's not that we wouldn't have patents- patents are important for investment. It's the duration of them that is different due to US influence.
I will concede on the environmental impact, I'm just especially bitter about the 13 million dollar settlement for the priviledge to have gas that causes respiratory irritation.
USA doesn't want friendly relations with you though.
Nah, you're clearly not paying attention or wilfully ignoring whatever doesn't fit your position. It's not even all MAGA folks that want to break up our national relationship and basically no one outside MAGA wants to at all. Even staunch conservatives are calling this the dumbest trade war ever. I think there's a lot of indication that most American citizens and especially many businesses want cooperation with Canada.
Yet Trump/Musk and their regime are doing things their way anyway. Now what? Wait for the democrats to step in? lol
You are right that Trump/Musk are destroying America. You are wrong that they are unopposed because they certainly are in Canada, in many other parts of the world, and yes, inside the US. Re: the stakes - the USA is not taking over Canada, period. They are causing a lot of economic harm, but telling Americans they're trash people that need to fuck off en masse does absolutely nothing to repair that damage. No matter what Trump tries to tell you and everyone else, this trade war is not popular among almost anyone. So what we do is keep on telling Trump to go fuck himself along with all those people, just as our nation is doing now.
If Americans do disappear and stop having a relationship with Canada as you suggest a HUGE number of Canadians are going to suffer. The only way to prevent that is to fight back as much as necessary and then work to restore the engine that keeps all those Canadians and Americans afloat. Basically as Canadians we need to stay the course, punish the US for it's betrayal, strengthen ties elsewhere, but then also be open to reconciliation. Being toxic and vengeful is not going to help citizens of either country.
This assumes that USA can be repaired. It's entirely possible that their people have crossed the line of no return, and are no longer able to start behaving in a civilized manner on average before crashing spectarularly.
If you don't trust in the US citizens' ability to repair their country, there's not much sense in trying to build a nice relationship with them. And I'm not saying USA cannot repair itself. Maybe it can. What I'm saying is that it is plausible that many people do not believe USA has what it takes.
I can definitely see what you're saying, and you seem to be hoping for the best and planning for the worst. Which is reasonable. I don't disagree with you but I'd add to the conversation:
That's what wise people say. And with that attitude, you're likely to get both the good relationship and the respect.
But yeah... I've never been to USA, or anywhere in America for that matter. But I've visited the Russia several times, and even spent a month living there. And the MAGAts are looking pretty similar to the vatniks, and the vatniks (MAGA-analogues of the Russia) have not budged to sense, and have instead consolidated their position to the point that currently 70 to 90 percent of people in the Russia fall in that category, and most of the rest are still supporting their Ruler's way. (I wonder if "Ruler" is the best way to translate "Vladelets", the phrase Putin asked to be used of him)
There is still much hope, because in under two years there are the congressional elections, and they seem to have been designed in such a way that Trump will have a hard time trying to either prevent or fake them. But until that... I don't know... It tells a lot that none of the US products you can buy in Europe have any no-slavery-certificates such as UTZ or Rainforest Alliance. It gives me an impression that people absolutely don't care about right and wrong there at all. If they don't, why would they protest in a way that matters to Trump?
I hear you. It's absolutely insane how fast the Republicans morphed into what I now know are called vatniks. Including, unbelievably, support for Putin. I think conditions are different in the USA (for instance a lot of traditional and online media being very critical of Trump's moves) than Russia, but it remains to be seen how all this plays out. I fear autocracy is on the rise in many countries and definitely in the US.
As far as morality go, the entire world has problems demanding ethical treatment for people far away. Products of all kinds are made in terrible conditions, and even I'm not innocent as I own things like mobile phones. I admittedly don't know a ton about ethical guards, but I do know that even in the EU you still have companies like Nestle doing business in spite of clear exploitation. I think that is very much a humanity problem as opposed to just a US problem, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't call it out in North America or that you're wrong.
“It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal.” ― Henry Kissinger
If you're relying on Henry Kissinger for advice I have no common ground to advance the conversation with. Also, that quote addresses none of the points I've made about either sovereignty or economics, and isn't the dunk you appear to think it is.
Edit: Just another thought that occurred to me while thinking about how that quote is wrong - it's not even going to be fatal to have been America's friend. Canada is going to survive Trump's aggression, and will also survive the US relationship regardless of how things play out. Moreover, for decades the US-Canada alliance built up both countries immensely. I support Canada building stronger ties to more countries than just the US, but at this point in history far more good has come out of being America's friend than harm has been done by Trump.
You don't have to trust the guy, just listen to what he's saying and who's saying it.
That the quote is from Kissinger is not my only criticism, just the one you have an answer for. So you'll try to steer the conversation to that with, again, zero response to the sovereignty or economic realities I've brought up. If you want to continue arguing then post substance, not one-line zingers from one of the most evil men of the last 100 years.