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Mozilla flamed by Firefox fans after promises to not sell their data go up in smoke
(www.theregister.com)
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this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2025
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Soo... where do we go now? What open source alternative exists that is on the side of its users?
Just keep using Firefox. Nothing in the code has changed, and if it does you can switch to forks. You all are evangelizing about how important FOSS is to prevent this exact scenario and yet you keep switching browsers for no need at all.
Note: I love Foss, I just think this is an overreaction
Oh sure, but browsers are an entirely different beast.
Eventually, they'll take it closed source, now I know what you're thinking "Then one of the forks will just become the dominant one!"
But here's the thing, the browser engine is very complicated just to keep up with. The W3C spec that all engines must follow is thousands of pages long. So all those forks will wither and die once the engine has been cut off from upstream updates.
None of those forks touch the engine as-is
Do tell how something like Zen or Ladybird has a better chance at doing so. It would be better if instead of this fragmentation the Zen and Ladybird would work in a Firefox fork.
Ladybird has some serious backing and employed developers working on their engine and has been worked on for years (Ladybird started life as the SerenityOS browser)
And even after all that time and money, it's still not even ready for general use. Their roadmap has them having a public release ready in 2028 iirc
And fragmentation? Really? LMAO there needs to be some competition in browser engines, if there was we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.
There are only 2 modern, open source and fully working engines. Chromium and FF, that's not fragmentation, that's a duopoly
That's like calling Linux on the server a monopoly. It's open source, with many distros (forks). Anyone can fork the engine.
Distros are not kernel forks. Distros simply take the kernel, and bundle it with many utilities for the end-user. It is the equivalent of taking a puzzle set and assembling the pieces together. Sure, many distros maintain their own programs (such as a package manager), but it is an entirely different thing to maintain pacman than to maintain the freaking kernel.
Even the Linux kernel is not as much of a beast that a browser engine is, I've seen estimates that a dedicated small team could build a new modern Linux kernel from scratch and generally usable in about 2-3 years
A browser engine takes years more, again, ladybird's engine is built from scratch, and it's currently in year 3 targeting an alpha release in 2026 or Year 4. With it projected to be generally usable in 2028 a full 6 years later.
And there are actually a couple different independent kernels, so no it's not a monopoly
Zen is a Firefox fork.
I mean, FOSS doesn't prevent this on its own. We should probably all switch to LW and try to keep an eye that those telemetry settings don't become disabled upstream.
Also of concern would be anyone using Firefox accounts and sync.
Librewolf
Ladybird looks promising.
Depends on where you stand on misogyny and transphobia.
I feel out of the loop on this one. Is there a particular individual on the project that this is about, or is this a company policy issue?
Essentially, someone submitted a PR on GitHub changing a "he" in the build instructions to a gender-neutral "they", to which the main dev of Ladybird (Andreas Kling) replied:
This next part's just my opinion; that's an insane response to someone suggesting neutral language. As a non-binary person, I wouldn't feel comfortable around this person after such a reply, and I certainly wouldn't donate to Ladybird or anything of the sort.
That being said, we all likely use tons of software developed by people way worse than Kling. As long as it's FOSS and is privacy-respecting, I'll run code that's been written by bigots. However I definitely won't support them by recommending their software to others, or by donating time or money to the project.
I don't think that's just opinion anymore, it's a fairly accurate analysis. Countless serious projects use pronouns and "they," and that's fine, but for these few specific groups they're somehow political and a bad thing.
I've heard Andreas' twitter likes were telling, before those went private, but that information's out of reach now. That said, I've seen the people who frequently interact with him there, and I wouldn't feel comfortable around them either. He seems to really like it, though. Make of that what you will.
Still, good point on the reality of "moral software use." For all its issues, I do hope Ladybird succeeds as a new browser engine because the internet needs more of those. I'm just not touching it unless they get their shit sorted.
Honestly it seems blown way out of proportion. You are leaving out the part where he said he thinks that they sounds weird. I believe he is still open to rewriting the docs to not use pronouns at all
That doesn't help. Also, his main reason remains "keep politics out of my project," completely missing the point that his stance is also political. It's the old "my politics aren't political because they're normal."
That's even more political, and ridiculously so. Linux kernel docs refer to users as "they." Should they change it? Are they bringing in unnecessary politics into the sanctity of one of the world's greatest collaborative technical projects? Are they too fucking woke?
Documentation shouldn't have pronouns since that's the wrong tone
I think the dev probably just hasn't been exposed much to transgender people. Reacting with hate immediately doesn't help at all.
There is a link on another FF post to GitHub where someone changed "he" to "they" in the documentation. All references to a user being able to do anything in the documentation only uses "He".
The main dev told them to "keep their politics to themselves" and refused the fix.
In which context? If it was referring to a man I get why he'd say that answer
Parent comment says "a user." Reading the docs, it clearly wasn't referring to a man, but any user, as in "the average Lemmy user interacts with many instances, and they have the option to block those they're not interested in."
I think that's a pretty cheap PR. Ideally it should be rewritten to not to use pronouns. The PR is low effort and feels like it was deliberately done for attention.
And?
Why? Linux kernel docs use pronouns and they, and they're fine. What's so special about Klingland that they need to keep pronouns out?
Have you ever seen the piles of "good first issue" tags on github? Most newcomers start with simple changes, and documentation improvements are high up in being a user's first contribution. Do you have anything that suggests the person behind the PR had such intentions, beyond you thinking it's low effort?
I think it is overblown
Also we don't exactly have a lot of options
Zen Browser