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Do EVs match solarpunk vision?
(slrpnk.net)
Hi all, As title says, I’d like to know if in your opinion electric vehicles are truly a sustainable solution that fits within the solarpunk vision (given the fact that a community exists here). I work in an urban agriculture association and spend time with engaged and activist people, and it's pretty much accepted there that EVs are a big scam. What do you think and would you have any recommendations for me to form my own opinion on this topic, which I consider particularly important? Thank you!
I would say that the scam around EVs is that it is not an improvement for the environment if one just replaces classic SUVs with electric ones. We need to move away from the car centered life. EV though can be a building block for a cleaner public transportation system or a personal vehicle for people in remote areas
Thank you for your question!
As I said in my message, EVs are not an improvement in my opinion if you just use them as replacements for current cars without any significant changes in our current usage of personal transportation. They are not the same, but they both present higher emissions profiles than public transportation when considering lifecycle analysis studies. EVs do offset a lot of their emissions in the manufacturing and end-of-life parts of their lifecycle. It also relies on the assumption that we will one day be able to produce enough renewable energy to power every vehicle, we do not have this capacity yet. You should also take into account for your analysis that sustaining a world with EVs as a drop-in replacement for ICE vehicles would require extracting significantly more rare earth metals than we currently do, requiring new mines that are known to impact biodiversity through significant earth and water pollution (not all environmental impacts are CO2-based). I think you will find that Philippe Bihouix's book "The Age of Low Tech" or Guillaume Pitron's "The Rare Metals War" explain this concept very well.
I think I do understand your point, but I maintain that technology alone will not bring a sustainable world; it is our behaviors and societies that need to be changed. Technological improvements are also often subject to Jevons paradox (or the rebound effect), which needs to be factored in before stating that switching to EVs will bring long-term and sustainable improvement. That is why I think it would be a lie to say that EVs are a sustainable alternative to maintain the same car-centric lifestyle, as we have no such certainty.
I hope this clarifies my point of view!
Does this analysis work under the assumption that technology remains static and unchanging? Does it account for the efforts to decouple from exotic materials? We've already seen two very large steps that are in place commercially in EV consumer products, so this isn't simply theoretical:
Considering how short a time it has taken industry to not only identify cleaner alternatives and get them into use, it suggests that an assumption in analysis that EV technology of one day projected over an infinite future may be flawed logic.
I get your point, and it's great to see such fast improvements. But we shouldn't bet the future of the planet on potential breakthroughs. It seems way more sensible to act on what we know works now rather than hoping for future discoveries to save us. It's like counting on nuclear fusion to fix everything.
Given how urgent the situation is, we need to hit 2 tons of CO2 equivalent per person per year by 2050, and we're not even close, it makes more sense, in my opinion, to focus on what we can do right now.
In the current state of things, there is no infinite future to consider, just an increasingly dangerous and potentially irreversible one.
First, I see your post before mine was downvoted. That wasn't me. I share a different opinion than yours, but your opinion is equally valid in this discussion. I see nothing in your post which is insulting or takes away from the discussion to deserve a downvote.
So I don't put words in your mouth, what do we "know works now" in your opinion that could be implemented in a faster time frame than EVs that would have a positive impact on the reduction of CO2?
No worries, thank you for caring! I often worry about being wrong, so I don't comment too often, but I don't have any bad feelings. We're all on the same side of the fight, and there's no need to go against each other.
Regarding transportation alone, there are multiple ways we can greatly improve the situation:
Outside of transportation, there are even more impactful actions that can be taken without relying on new technology. For example, ADEME (a French organization) estimates that: "A reduction in average meat consumption of 10 grams per day per person leads to a decrease of approximately 200 square meters in land footprint, as well as a 5.2% reduction in total greenhouse gas emissions." (Source). You can also look at projects around the Circular Economy and the Low Tech movement. Of course, some of these initiatives might involve building new software or hardware, but these things are doable now (for example, there are projects focused on tracking products precisely to improve the circular economy) and don't rely on future discoveries.
In fact, when considering multiple possible scenarios (like France's Transition 2050), those that don't rely on technosolutionism are often the most efficient and certain to work. Finally, one of the reasons I find it important to talk about this is that relying on future tech can be a great source of disengagement and indifference, leading people to believe that they don't have a role to play in this situation.
Okay, I think I understand your position better, thank you.
The biggest flaw that I see in your approach is that nearly all of those changes require the population to decide to make the changes together. If that agreement isn't there, the only other way to implement most of those would be with authoritarian decrees. There are places in the world where that is possible, but I wouldn't call that a recommended solution to apply. A number of your suggestions would require additional funding too. That has to come from somewhere and the origin of that funding is also likely a contentious debate. Without everyone agreeing on the need for these things, few, if any will be implemented and that means more CO2 being emitted.
This is a good one that can be done at an individual level. It requires no agreement other than the person making the choice for themselves. This definitely resonates well on the "punk" of solar punk.
The meat reduction is the closest thing EVs for your cited solutions. Its an individual choice on the part of the consumer that can have the intended positive impact. That makes it extremely realistic as far as a component on the path to a full solution.
I understand your perspective, and I appreciate the discussion. In France, there are multiple scenarios and budgets that can support these initiatives. In fact, many of the ideas I've proposed have already been implemented quickly in places I've lived:
I understand your argument comparing meat reduction to EVs, but I believe it's flawed, at least in my country. The EV sector is heavily subsidized to encourage people to switch their vehicles as soon as possible. We could even argue that the carbon footprint associated with the early replacement of functioning vehicles, driven by fear of ICE vehicle restrictions, should be considered in the total cost.
All of those things still require dense urban environments. There's a whole bunch of the world that doesn't apply to that ICE vehicles rule. EV replacement of any of those ICE vehicles is a net gain for the CO2 reduction movement.
That would be a valid argument if the replaced ICE vehicles were immediately going to the scrapyard, but I think you'd agree with me that isn't what is happening with a replaced ICE vehicle. Further, I stipulated that I wasn't advocating for people with nearly new ICE vehicles to immediately got out and buy an EV, but instead when they are planning on replacing their ICE with another ICE, and EV would be a better choice for the environment.
Here's some data. 6.8% of new cars in the USA are EVs. That 6.8% replaced otherwise ICE vehicle purchases. I think if you'd ask most climate scientists if nearly 7% of new cars no longer running on fossil fuels they would say thats a substantial improvement.