2087
time for a rebrand!
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2023
2087 points (100.0% liked)
Memes
45666 readers
512 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Your comment implies that people take insult when someone calls them out for supporting a platform that - just to take one example - decides it’s proper to prosecute victims of crime because they also think the government should have jurisdiction over woman’s body and a say in their health and wellbeing.
Is them taking umbrage to valid crisis the real issue here?
You support a platform for many different reasons. For example you really want small government, so what choice do you have? And how do you know that a republican definitely is a pro-lifer? And if he is a prolifer, how do you know he believes government should control woman? You can't just paint them all as evil as you imagined. What you imagined is not your neighbor.
Perfectly illustrates my point. I didn’t paint them as evil, I just criticised them. Big difference, which you seem unable to draw.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying “I get you have ideological views, but supporting a party that hurts people to win culture wars is not something I am not cool with”. Branding that as insulting or hateful is just attempting to dodging accountability by disingenuously claiming victim status.
Party allegiance aside, it’s unreasonable and hypocritical for anyone to support a platform with an agenda that will directly and adversely impacts broad swathes of society with an expectation that they will not be directly or adversely impacted by their actions and decisions (which in this case is something as innocuous as simply drawing criticism).
Rebranding Nazism as Republicans is not painting them as evil?
I mean I understand as the discussion goes people often confuse themselves with what we are talking about, but the OP of the post is branding republicans as nazis, and nazis are people we don't need to give any consideration to, these are people we should eliminate from the surface of the earth.
Hey you want to get things done you have to start somewhere. If you think your republican friends are better off getting a new party started, I guess you can start the conversation there.
But have a conversation, don't just call them nazis.
…is the part of your argument I am responding to. Saying “don't five people a hard time for supporting fucked up things” is pretty fucked up.
Amen brother. Everyone should be prepared to be face criticism, because no one is altruistic and never will be if they can’t bear to be challenged about their beliefs.
So something being messed up doesn't mean you can't support it. Let's not even talk about the party, you might believe this country is fucked up. Every country have people who believe their own country has a lot of problems. It doesn't mean you don't support it. You support it because, say, you rely on it to achieve your own ideal, or perhaps you just love what it used to be and you want it to be more successful, or whatever.
The platform isn't a singular thing. I can totally see someone who's in the party to support small government and having to endure the mess that is abortion and extreme gun rights.
Agree! Supporting your country =/= being complicit in all the bad shit done by or in the name of your country. That’s why activism exists, that’s why people can and will protest.
So how come this same logic doesn’t apply if the protests and activism is being directed at your republican neighbour?
I mean if you talked with your neighbor and you can't have a beer over some heated discussions and your neighbor is throwing dog shit in your yard and calling you names, yeh, direct your protest and activisim towards them because they are an asshole.
Being a republican doesn't automatically make them an asshole. Talk first, treat a person as a person, instead of his political affiliation.
Your activism should never start with targeting people. Target ideas. Ideas won't change but people are probably amenable if you use the right approach.
I've never argued or suggested this. I'm enjoying this thread and exploring this idea, but not a fan of strawman arguments :(
Your original point was that that people aren't responsible for the bad ideas of their party, so lecturing on on how to change people's minds is disingenuous in this context.
And I think this is the core contradiction in what you're trying to argue. Imagine your dog-shit analogy in another way: if a neighbour discriminates against you because you're gay (let's say makes comments as you pass by), you appear to support the idea that he is responsible for that view and presumably you can tell him to get fucked to his face. But if that same neighbour votes for a party that discriminates against you, while politely waving to you in the morning, you're saying you shouldn't hold him responsible because he's probably a swell guy? The outcome is the same! You're being discriminated against.
For the record I wouldn't yell "Fuck you Bill!" in protest if this happened. But I absolutely have the right to say "Bill, we've been neighbours for 10 years and I enjoy having you around for BBQ in the summer months, but the fact that you support the party that wants to see my way of life restricted in this way is really disappointing and upsets me" and I absolutely would not be OK if Bill argued that he's not responsible for voting directly against my interests. And to be clear, I'm not saying Bill shouldn't be allowed to vote against my interests, I am just saying that I get to call him out on that. It's unbelievable to me that anyone would say otherwise, but circling back to OP:
You seem to think the world run on responsibilities. How many people you see in your life take responsibilities for everything they do and say? And I am not saying responsibilities do not matter, but you can't just interpret what I said based on your imaginary value system. I never said people aren't responsible for their ideas and what they support. It just doesn't matter in this conversation. You want it to matter? Then who are you to say "they are responsible"? Who are you to judge the consequences of policies? Who are you to call what exactly does a person believe in simply based on his party affiliation?
Well you missed the part of talking to your neighbor first. How he act alone doesn't really matter that much. To understand what he believes in you gotta talk to him. Does he hate gays? Or does he just believe in small government and love guns?
If he hate gays, and you tell him you are homosexual, would he start throwing dog shit in your yard, or would he have a painful conversation with you? That's the important part. You didn't really get what I am trying to say.
I said we keep the conversation going, I never said treat everyone like your BFF. You talk, you don't judge before you talk. You don't brand a Republican as a Nazi before you talk to him.
I am honestly not sure what are we arguing about. If you are fine with talking to your neighbor in a frank manner, what do you disagree with me on? Like, how do you know Bill is going to argue that way? How about he tells you "yeh I don't really like that shit either but I don't like how the liberals are doing things yada yada"? Wouldn't you think if you talk long enough the latter response is more likely and probably a more interesting discussion to have?
This belief depends entirely on the state. Other red states don't give a shit. Kansas and Florida for example haven't restricted it at all.
Not familiar with those states but after a quick search:
Florida has an an abortion plan that permits prosecution of a women as a third degree felony in some circumstances.
Kansas prohibits abortions after 22 weeks and “a woman who seeks an abortion will be given state-mandated propaganda designed to change her mind. She will then have to look at an ultrasound image, wait 24 hours and pay for the procedure out of her own pocket.”
“Not as bad” isn’t really a W.
Every country limits abortion to some extent. The UK limits it at 24 unless medically necessary. Denmark is at 12 weeks.
The US was unique in that you weren't permitted to limit it at all due to the supreme court decision.
Some limitations are fine, imo.
Wrong again:
In the argument you call out, wasn't the republican side pushing the decision of abortion legality to state level, putting it more in the hands of the people?
Edit: should clarify, I'm unaffiliated, and just looking for answers.
It used to be up to the individual. The Republicans took it out of the hands of the people.
Yeah they pushed it for state level and when they realized most people even in Republican states didn't support the ban they went straight to trying to push it federally.
It's all a grift for the sake of control and power. Acting like it's anything less when the mask has been removed makes you complicit which is why I say fuck all republicans.
Is the Republicans platform not anti-abortion?
It is, and I don't know how anyone could disagree with you on that.
We bash the Confederacy for using "states rights" to try and justify slavery. We should bash Republicans for using the same tactics.