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In photos: Thousands protest in Israel to demand Gaza deal
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this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2024
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You cannot assume the people protesting here are the same as the people in that riot. That is not fair to them.
As a Jew who fled the USSR in the 1980s, I fully co-sign Norman Finklestein‘s (a Jewish intellectual and scholar on the subject who lost his family to the Nazi holocaust) assessment that Israel is a sick society.
In October, 58% Israelis polled said that Israel is using too little firepower in Gaza.
In December, they were polled and asked to what extent should Israel take into account the suffering of the Palestinian civilian population. Over 80% said to a little extent.
https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/
Okay, but 80% is not 100%.
So why pretend that 100% of Israelis have the same opinion? It's just bigotry. Just because Israel is committing a genocide and even if the majority of Israelis agree with that genocide, it's simple bigotry to suggest that every Israeli agrees with the genocide.
And if you're going to just piss away internal opposition as if it doesn't exist, you're pissing away hope.
I never said every. You're burying your head in the sand about what Israel has turned into. And don't lecture me on Israel like you have any fucking skin in the game. My grandfather was Israeli. I'm a Jewish refugee in the US. It's not bigotry to factually point out how absolutely atrocious the views of the majority of Israelis are. And how rooted in bigotry it is.
That's how this whole conversation thread started. With the implication that there are no Israelis who are against genocide.
That is the issue.
That people internally protesting this are just being treated like they don't exist.
If that wasn't what you were talking about, I'm sorry, but that is what was being discussed.
I think you have an issue with parsing words on a screen. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say every. I said Israel as a whole would look for every opportunity to level Gaza and displace the West Bank. Israelis are not in the streets protesting the IDF ripping up roads of Palestinian cities in the West Bank. They're not protesting because there are 40k dead Palestinians (possibly as high as 186k which around 8% of the population). They're protesting dead hostages.
That's not the implication tho. The implication is that, similar to nazi Germany, a significant portion of their population has wanton care about the carrying-out of genocide. It doesn't really matter that "not every" German was a nazi when the society still carried out the genocide of almost 12 million people, more than half of which were jews.
While I agree with you, I can't entirely discount /u/oakey66. History has proved it for decades.
I can't discount that there are plenty of Israeli bigots who would love to see Palestine wiped out, sure. But let's not pretend they're a hive mind. And maybe not tar the people doing this with the same brush as the ones rioting over rapists being imprisoned.
If there are dissenting voices in Israel they need to speak up. And if voices within Israel are speaking up they need to be amplified.
All dissent I've heard has come from the diaspora.
Then maybe you should, I don't know, click on the link at the top of this article and look at the photos.
Or possibly just read the headline of the post you're commenting in.
For fuck's sake...
They are protesting the retrieval of the hostages; not the genocide of the Gazan people. As far as I know, there are almost no voices in Israel speaking out against the genocide of the Gazan people.
Maybe you should read the article.
This article?
I read it.
Why are you gaslighting?
The trigger for the protests and ceasefire demands was for the rescue hostages, not the end of the ongoing genocide.
Yes, I know what triggered them. What do you think they want Netanyahu to do? Kill even more Palestinians? Is that what you think they're calling for here? Bomb harder?
Because they're literally calling for the opposite. Isn't that a good thing?
There's no doubt that a good chunk of the population does want Netanyahu to kill even more Palestinians. These people didn't start protesting over their actions against the Palestinians. So once they have the hostages it's a safe assumption that they will stop protrsting and demanding a ceasefire.
No that is not a safe assumption. They are not a hive mind.
If what you're saying is true then there would have been protests of this magnitude the moment the news started coming out about what the IDF is doing.
Sorry... you're saying it is true that Israel is a hive mind and there is 100% agreement on the genocide in Palestine or else just as many people would have protested at the beginning?
I'm saying a significant portion of the Israelis would have been protesting from the beginning if they cared about the Palestinians.
Okay, but no one said that a significant portion of Israelis were against it. This is what you said:
That is only true if every single person protesting feels that way. And that would only be true if they were a hive mind.
Some Israelis have been protesting since the beginning of the war. Yes, they are not huge in number, but they exist. Were you even aware of that?
I have no doubt in my mind that there exists some Israelis that are kind and compassionate and are completely willing to coexist with the Palestinians. But those people will always be in the minority. We're talking about a country whose whole existence is based on the displacement and eradication of the native population. The genocide of the Palestinians started long before Oct 7th. The only thing that has changed is how quickly it's happening.
@oakey66@lemmy.world started this thread with the topic:
and they are right.
You said:
I pointed out that I've seen there are no sources I've seen to the contrary coming out of Israel. Everything I've seen to the contrary (sources which would make the argument that Israel should not be engaging in genocide, agreeing with @oakey66@lemmy.world 's point ) has been coming from diaspora sources, not sources within Israel.
You then responded with:
But the headline of the article does not make that point, and neither does the article. In fact, its another unit of evidence to suggest there is almost no will to stop the genocide of the Gazan people coming from within Israel. The word genocide occurs no where in the article. There is no mention of forced removal. There is no mention of ethnic cleansing. These protests clearly have nothing to do with the ongoing genocide of the Gazan people and are solely focused on "getting the hostages back". If there are other sources or people that can speak for the protests that say other wise, I'd love to find them. I've not found anyone in Israel willing to call what the Israeli government is doing a genocide. Dissent in Israel wants the hostages back, but they don't seem to give a shit about the continuing genocide of the Gazan people.
If you think that these protest have anything to do with stopping the war or stopping the genocide, its yourself who has gaslit you.
Let me get this straight...
Are you really claiming that the entire population of Israel- all 9.5 million people- share exactly the same opinion on Palestine?
Because that would be incredibly fucking bigoted of you, so I want to make sure that's what you're saying.
No, I'm making the point that if there is descent on this issue within Israel I can't find it. I haven't heard it. I'm also not going to project a desire to believe it exists onto a world where I don't have evidence for it. I want to find it. I've looked for it. I can't find it.
All the Jewish led criticism I've found of Israels actions appears to be coming from the diaspora. I can't find sources from within Israel calling the Israeli campaign a genocide or calling for it to stop.
How many people have you actually heard from? Let's say percentagewise- what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis have you heard from to determine that there is no dissent?
I think you need to address the fact that you've conflated these protests for something they are not before we can proceed, and I continue to treat with you as if you are engaging in good faith.
Can you acknowledge that these protest are not about stopping the genocide of the Palestinian people? That the article is not about stopping genocide? Because you made that conflation previously.
I can acknowledge that many of the protesters are not about stopping that. I cannot acknowledge that there is no one there protesting genocide. I would like to see evidence to that effect. If they are anything like the many anti-war protests I have attended, there is a wide range of opinions amongst the protesters beyond "end the war."
I have not talked to the thousands of people protesting. I do not know what they all think. Or even what most of them think.
Now, please tell me what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis you have heard from to determine that there is no dissent inside Israel.
You want there to be this different thing that this protest about. I wish it was about that thing too. But when a protestor says "I'm protesting about this thing" my job isn't to tell them they are actually protesting some other thing or that they should be protesting this other thing. My job is to listen to them and believe what they are telling me.
But the protestors are being clear about what they are protesting about. They want the hostages back. They are not talking at all about stopping the genocide.
As far as people I've talked to about this. One is a personal friend, a former IDF soldier and former fellow organizer during BLM 2020. We organized as part of a veterans coalition in support of BLM. Second is my cousins and Uncle (a self described Zionist) who is a very high level organizer on the US side for Israel. He has spent years in Israel although he lives in the US, as have my cousins. I've also spoken with my irl best friend who is from Palestine and with whom I was literally planning a trip to Gaza for not that if not for Oct 7th, who has personally organized Palestinians for peace events in Gaza.
I also listen to and read several prominent Palestinian/ Muslim/ and Jewish voices on the left.
I have asked you a question twice now. You said you would answer it. You did not.
Let's reduce my question to just the people protesting: out of the thousands, what percentage of them have you actually heard from about why they are protesting?
Ok. I think you need a break for the day. I can't treat you as if you are arguing in good faith at this point.
“Without the return of the hostages we will not be able to end the war, we will not be able to rehabilitate ourselves as a society,” Ron Tomer, president of the Manufacturers’ Association of Israel. Te me, “Rehabilitation” implies a level of dissent with Netanyahu’s actions.
I mean, I see what you are saying, but that is pretty rhetorically light. I can see this as maybe the start of something, but I think what we're seeing out of Israel warrants a more focused and directed conversation.
If you want to believe this, its on you to show us it. The entire thread obviously knows much more about whats going on in Israel and all we've gotten from you is your projection of how you wish things were.
If this opposition to the Israeli led genocide exists within Israel show us.
Sure, right after I show you how I don't have dual loyalties to America and Israel, right? I have to show people that one all the time.
Of course, a lot of times, they don't believe me anyway.
You are making a claim for the existence of a thing. No one else made that claim. We are asking for evidence of that claim. I've looked for evidence. I am not finding any evidence of a "don't genocide the Gazans" movement within Israel. I can find evidence outside of Israel.