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what's up with the ToS changes regarding the vegan community?
(sh.itjust.works)
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this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2024
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what's wrong with it?
Cats are obligate carnivores. They need meat. A vegan cat is a dead cat.
Cats require a few nutrients which aren't naturally present in plants, such as taurine. Fortunately, those nutrients are easily synthesised, and added to vegan cat foods in order to make them nutritionally complete.
oh god WHY HAVE A DUCKING CAT?!!! Get a bird or a turtle please!
Look at the research before getting emotional.
While it seems dogs need atleast some meat, the scientific consensus is cats can be healthy with a vegan diet and proper supplementation.
I’m not vegan nor do I have a cat, but this debate interested me and I’ve read a couple literature reviews and big papers on the subject.
Cats aren’t what they were 15’000 years ago. Domestication has turned them into an entirely different species.
The thing I'm wondering whenever I see this discussion is:
Should a vegan have a pet that kills for fun?
Should they keep it inside all day to stop it from killing?
I don't get why a vegan would want to have a cat at all.
Unless you live somewhere with little native wildlife the general rule amongst conservationists is that cats should not be let outside. They have already contributed to the extinction of many bird species.
That being said, in america, people let their cats out in general. In western europe, not so much.
Could you please tell that to the people living in my corner of western Europe? Would be nice not to have to shovel car sit out of my garden anymore.
that's a reallly hairsplitty way of putting it .
I thought the issue was bioavailability of those nutrients was called into question?
Long pork is often a euphemism for people meat.
So you're just fine with using and abusing an animal when it gets you what you want. Gotcha.
This is a nice comment explaining why the vegan ideology is just bored people feeling morally superior
sure. but the above post stated with supplements. so if the food is palatable and nutritional to the cat, then what does it matter?
A person understands the reason they're eating only plants with no animal byproducts. An animal doesn't. An animal is just confused and irritated that their food was changed for the worse by their owner. If their diet and mountain of supplement pills/powders did not actually meet their dietary needs because it wasn't an exact match for their regular food or natural prey, they would still end up malnourished. And not every cat's dietary needs are the same or stay the same as they age.
Malnourished or not, you also wouldn't be able to stop your cat from finding a mouse or insect which snuck into your home and devouring them to enhance their compromised diet. You cannot make a carnivore vegan, you can only abuse them into living in a way they do not naturally live and do not want to live, until they find a way to avoid you for just long enough to go against your wishes and savage another animal, as is their instinctive nature.
Furthermore, do you really think animals have no joy in what they eat, that that's only a human quality? Nutrition doesn't matter to the animal, they just want to eat what they want to eat. Cats almost never turn down an offer of cream or milk despite 90% or more of them being lactose intolerant. It's not nutrients their body needs or can absorb, and actively makes them feel ill. But they want it anyway because it's tasty and they aren't able to consider the consequences of their actions as far in advance as humans can.
Edit: In fact, going off that same point but for humans, you could probably make a human live off some kind of tasteless nutrient bar that gives everything you could need, but it wouldn't mean they'd enjoy it. Oh wait, we did do that before, as a cruel punishment for prisoners in the US, fucking nutraloaf!
and if it was palatable?
You're still making them do something they didn't consent to. They will still chew on bugs and small prey animals (when they get access to them, which isn't often for indoor cats), because it's etched into their behavior. They will take every opportunity they get. You can't make a cat vegan, you can only force a cat on a vegan diet. Can't you understand the qualitative difference there?
Giving a dog/cat shots in doing something to them they didn't consent to.
Your logic is completely absent
The stupidity of some vegas has no boundaries. It makes me so sad to know those poor animals are being torture. You are right but we can't really debate dumb
do cats consent to eating cat biscuits?
Why have an animal to.torture it? Get a parrot of a fish then. Don't adopt an animal, that can't understand, and push stupid human values to it. A person that says wants to "protect" animal should respect nature. but you know... vegans are jot the best at logical thinking
if the animal enjoys the food and it has all the nutrition the animal needs then how is it torture?.
Do you also rant at people who keep their cats inside against their will?
I don't think palatable nutritional vegan cat food exists, at least none with any empirical evidence its safe for cats long-term.
but if it did, would you have any objection?
I would encourage people contemplating it's use to instead get any of the many herbivore companions instead of trying to make the square peg fit in the round hole.
but I'm asking a simple question: if the cat enjoys the food, and it has all the nutrition the cat requires for a healthy life, would you have any objection?
If it actually enjoyed it, sure. But I believe it would be a substantial lowering of their quality of life. Seeing the difference between how happy my cats are with their normal food vs wet cat food vs churu treats, it's plain as day they have preferences. While they can survive with proper nutrients, they won't have as fulfilling a life by limiting their food source in such a manner.
I won't talk about what's natural since my cats aren't catching any salmon or taking down a cow on their own, but I'm not getting a pet just to enforce a restrictive diet on them.
So as long as the cat is happy eating the food and has nutrition it's really not a problem.
I'm not a vet or a scientist. but these issues are easy to solve.
You are certainly neither. If it was easy to solve, it would already be done. I believe it's feasable with today's techniques with imitation meat but at a huge cost.
The reality is that most pet food utilizes what would otherwise become food waste. It may be difficult to replace it in a way that isn't a net negative.
are you a vet or a nutritional scientist by any chance?
That's the thing. I don't need to be, because I'm not suggesting a diet shift away from established practices offered BY vets. You, however, are attempting to escew established norms in favor of your own agenda. As they say, "Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence."
My claims are not fantastical, yours are.
but if someone who understood it better than us agreed that the food was nutritional and the cat enjoyed the flavour you would be fine with it?
Hey, just give it up. I already answered that question. The nutritional value is not the only factor I value.
no. we both agree. the food needs to be both nutritional.and palatable. then there is no issue.
My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn't clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn't clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing something important here.
Cats are obligate carnivores. They have evolved to eat meat and only meat. A vegan diet can and will kill them.
My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn't clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn't clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing something important here.
My opinion is based on fact. Alex Whittaker did a great takedown of that study, have an ABC brief
That article basically says what the study says. There is no real evidence that a vegan diet is healthier for cat; they point to owner bias as the cause of any perception that these studies show it is healthier.
My point was that there is no evidence that a vegan diet is impossible for a cat. I wouldn't try it because we don't know it's safe, but we also don't know that it's necessarily unsafe. I'm just bothered by people who jump to "vegan diet equals dead/tortured cat" because we don't have any evidence that supports such a dramatic claim.
Nah mate. You literally said " there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse" and then tried to link to a faulty science study that got debunked.
Vegan diets for cats are notoriously difficult due to the fact it runs completely counter to the diet a cat has evolved to process. If you're so dedicated to the vegan ideal that you will attempt to force an obligate carnivore - key word obligate - to consume a diet completely contrary to its digestive system then why are you keeping a pet in the first place?
Sorry for my imprecise response. The article you linked is talking about the "Vegan versus meat-based cat food..." study specifically. I was refering back to the study I referenced in a previous comment, "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review.". The systematic review is essentially a big picture analysis of 16 other studies, 6 specifically about cats. The "Vegan versus meat-based cat food..." study was not included.
The systematic review says there is not enough evidence at this point to say whether a vegan diet is better or worse. I still stand behind "there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse".
I'm not putting any pets on a vegan diet. First, I don't personally follow any vegan practices even for myself. Secondly, it's risky at this point, and I don't have enough resources (time, money, attention to detail) to minimize those risks. I keep pets because animal shelters kill animals that they do not have the capacity to support. I can imagine others, even those who practice vegan lifestyles, would commonly cite a similar motive.
if cats are carnivores then why does mine eat corn every chance it gets, sometimes going for fresh corn over refrigerated steak?
Same reason people sometimes chew on paper.
Actually if you're american, corn is also in cat food because it's freaking everywhere so cats can associate it with food
What's wrong with depriving a cat of something it has evolved to need and can die or be in bad health without?