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this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2024
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Reddit's design is excellent. We left when the leadership betrayed the community.
Reddit took off because it's the only forum where negative pressure worked. Trolls sank to the bottom. It's distributed soft moderation. And being soft, the high drama of 'I'll be downvoted for saying this!' barely matters.
In the absence of downvotes, you have to cross your fingers and hope for moderator intervention. Or: talk to the trolls, but avoid any intolerable no-no words, like... "troll." Because inevitably every genius running an instance without downvotes is also in the cult of civility. Never ever say anything bad about another user! Just downvote and move on, oops, I mean shut up and take it.
Twitter and Facebook are upvote-only sites. All possible interactions feed engagemagog, so even calling someone a bigoted asshole boosts them somehow. Big fuckin' surprise those sites filled with bigoted assholes once they got big. That's unlikely to happen to Blahaj specifically, even if it balloons, but:
If you want that for Lemmy as a whole then we won't magically escape the same systemic consequences. Every system is perfectly designed to produce its observed outcomes.
T_D was the leadership betraying the community. Spez supported those assholes. That's why they weren't simply banned, very early on, for all of that abuse.
And your systemic proposal is to give users even less ability to push back against a minority of noisy bigots.
"Push back" means "stop dead," right? Otherwise that's not what I fucking said.
We're talking about tools and their impact. You even pointed out: accountability changes behavior. People seeing a negative number next to their shit takes has an impact. The same goes for outright bigotry, even if we'd both prefer that earn a moderator's boot in the ass.
Relying on a tiny minority of special users to do all the work and never be wrong has downsides. They can be overzealous. They can be inattentive. They can be apathetic. They can be outright Nazis. It is better when sites like this don't need moderator intervention. Ideally - because nothing bad ever happens. But we don't live in "ideally."
Then I don't know why you wrote that.
Meanwhile: the rest of the comment, please.
You're the one who wants this to be the only interaction between users.
I am addressing the points you chose, in the words you used. When you misrepresent what I said - that's not a "[your] logic and reasons" problem. You are lying to me, about me. I object.
And what I did with that objection was highlight your initial comment to try and connect that rationale with the reality of randos interacting on websites like this. You want accountability? Downvotes are it. Downvotes are a novel and effective means of shaping behavior. If you want to argue that just talking it out is better, don't act offended when someone disagrees with you in detail.
Every time someone insists downvotes should go away, I try to do what they want and just talk to them about how that's a bad idea, and they bruise like a summer peach from the slightest pushback.
'Downvotes are soft moderation.' 'But they don't stop bigots!' 'No, hence: soft. But you want even that soft consequence removed.' 'How dare you speak to me that way.'
I am what you are asking for. I am the kind of person who will tell you when you've lied about me, to my face, and steer the conversation back toward what we fucking wrote. You don't get to clutch pearls at that point. You are explicitly arguing against the bloodless option to downvote my tone and move on with your life. You wanted this. This is what it looks like, when someone engages with the things you said.
What you're doing is trolling. In the face of repeated sincere effort to address your posts, you respond with zero-effort dismissal.
Whilst demanding that all of Lemmy be reduced to a state where the only possible response to shite comments is other comments. What the fuck do you want, if not this?
No.
You want this to be the only way people can address bad posts. I am telling you, in detail, why that's a terrible idea. This is what you want! This is what you fucking asked for.
This is what you want for the entirety of Lemmy. If you're not keen on that, change your damn mind.
What you're doing is trolling, and you need to fucking stop.
I keep trying to address the goddamn argument. "I read what you said" is not that. You're supposed to read things... and then think about them... and say something about them. What you've done instead is get offended that someone was miffed at your misrepresentation, and then repeatedly say 'stop saying things!' with negative self-awareness.
Meanwhile.
The entire goddamn point is:
YOU WANT TALKING TO BE THE ONLY RESPONSE.
I am the one defending downvotes, as a feedback mechanism. You don't want them. You want the only possible interaction between users to be what I keep trying to do, with you, despite your repeated bewildering denial. This comment you are reading right now is what you fucking asked for. This is what you want. This is what feedback looks like. Do you understand that, or do you just want to spout your opinions into the void and act surprised when other people type stuff back at you?