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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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Fuck the imperialist russian state. They had an invasion coming the moment they invaded and annexed crimea.
Okay, you hate Russia.
But why do you hate Ukrainians? Why do we have to die for your grudge with Russia?
This operation has the potential to better Ukraine's strategic position greatly. Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Czechoslovakia? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Poland? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered the Netherlands? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Denmark? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered France? - No.
Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Norway? - No.
Ww2 ended, when Nazi Germany was defeated.
Ukraine winning, Ukraine giving up, Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia, Russia winning - all those options will mean the dying of civilians stops.
The only option where people will continue to die is the option you (probably) support - continuing the war.
That is not my perception.
Russia winning means, the dying will continue in the suppression of their new subjects and in future invasions since this one would have been successful in the end.
How many people have died from "supression" (whatever it means in this context) in the Crimea, that has been occupied for 10 years now?
And the next question - how come this number (is it 0 or more?) is less then the number of civilians (some of whom be Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians) that died from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea?
Do you think people should have a choice of dying in this, very real, war, or in some hypothetical could-happen war in the future?
Bro people died defending it and the rest fled so they weren't raped or sledgehammered to death.
What's your solution dipshit.
Are we still talking about Crimea? Because what you are saying is completely false...
Please link some proofs to what you're saying.
Are you honestly looking for proof of the crimean invasion famously costing Ukraine an international airport and many many dead defenders.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antonov_Airport
The only people who say no one died dispite all evidence otherwise is Russia.
Ed: PS claiming you're Ukrainian is pretty shitty boss, you clearly aren't what's next you have cancer and a Canadian girlfriend?
Are you trolling or something?
We are talking about Crimea in 2014, and you are linking an article from 2022 about Kiev..
6 dead
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation
Try again dipshit, move the goalposts however youd like I'll make sure I refute every single one.
Donbas also 2014 invasion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation
From the header of the article there were 2 soldiers killed and 2 civilians killed. So equal to amount of people that died just from the Ukrainian shelling of Crimea in 2024 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2024_Sevastopol_missile_attack. How does it misalign with anything I've said?
Okay sure! First task for you: quote me moving goalposts in this thread at least once :) This has been about Crimea from the start, and you're the one trying to move the goalpost :)
Oops you just moved the goalpost..
Protest is defense dipshit.
No it's been about your nonsensical stance to end a war. Idealistic bullshit isn't going to stop anything. Fighting stopped in 2016.... And started again when Russia invaded a different part of Ukraine. But no, sure they'll never invade again, it's not like they've done it multiple times in our lifetime or anything.
Ed: no moved goalpost for me, my point is they've invaded before, agreed to stop and are yet again invading, thusly your point makes no goddamn sense.
You lie, moskals have been observed to continue stealing, raping, killing and ethnic cleansing long after any hostilities ceased in many armed conflicts before. Their behaviour in Bucha and elsewhere proves they haven't changed one bit.
would ukraine winning mean civilians stop dying in the eastern oblasts where the coup regime have been murdering civilians and bombing and shelling them since 2014?
I'm not the one who invaded Ukraine, but i support them fighting back against the aggressor.
would you rather just roll over and let russia take over?
You support who fighting back against the aggressor?
People who are now trapped in the biggest mass prison in the world? People who are trying to escape this prison by any means, including through the occupied territories, mountains and rivers? People who are afraid to leave homes and go to grocery shops, because any day they might be kidnapped by "recruitment officers" and forcefully sent to die?
You are not supporting us, you are killing us, together with Russia.
Ah yes, another lemmy.world account accusing me of spreading lies and yet not disproving any of them...
You haven't said anything to disprove, you've offered an idiotic opinion not a fact or anything you even claim to be a fact.
The deleted comment said that I'm lying. By definition it means the author thinks that I've said something that is not true, so it can be disproved (or at least one can provide an argument why it's likely not to be true).
Is there any reason that it is idiotic, other than not being aligned with western propaganda?
They're implying you're lying to yourself.
You keep saying everything like you have a solution but won't say what it is.
It's idiotic because no bully is going to stop bullying you because you stop fighting back especially when they want something you have.
Your fixing platitudes and dipshit idealism aren't helpful.
About what?
Already told you what the solution is.
The bully that bullies people in Ukraine is Zelensky though.
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
Now, you've said peace talks. No one has stopped those and it's no surprise fighting still has not stopped.
You sure it isn't the people literally blowing up Ukrainians. If Russia is so altruistic when then do they not see these "desperate prisoners of war" and give them mercy by withdrawimg from Ukraine since as your source says they are there killing civilians... Children... For a fucking political stunt.
If anything, the initial proposal was about Russia cedeing territory that it has captured (since 2022 invasion) to Ukraine, not the other way around.
No one has been doing any serious peace talks after the initial ones either.
Those as well, but you have to deal with more immediate problem first.
Where did I say that?
Ukraine does it as well.
Point to where it says cedeing territory.
Russia won't involve themselves without certain base demands that are never going to happen and remember they are invaders in a sovereign nation they started a war with to pressure NATO and pressure Ukraine out of joining NATO.
More immediate then dead kids, whatever would that be?
Your argument only works if they are at heart basically altruistic, otherwise simply stopping fighting back would simply result in a dramatic unopposed military defeat likely of the entire country so Ukraine could never join NATO. You know, that being their goal as per your sources.
Remind me, did Ukraine start the war? Would there be any civilian war casualties if there weren't a war?
Again, childish short-sighted bullshit.
People being kidnapped on the streets and being sent to die.
You have 4 subjects and that sentence doesn't make sense for any of them, can you try it again but you know .. better.
Changed one mistake from 'on' to 'and', now it's correct
That makes sense for one of those quotes, do you want to link them together into a coherent thought the people that aren't voices in your head can understand as the language known as English. Can we do that?
Let me know what exactly from my comment doesn't make sense.
I've just re-read and it seems to be well-formed.
Ok one by one.
Did you point to in the previous contextual comment where I said cede territory. I did not at that, I said they would have to cede to Russia as in relinquish sovereign authority by treaty.
That's not me, that's your source. Keep up with the conversation.
^ A page break so you don't sound like a fucking lunatic who can't separate two thought chains.
So these people, who you have zero firsthand accounts of are more important then not killing kids so a sovereign nation doesn't join NATO as is their right as an autonomous nation.
If I want you to not be such a fucking idiot can I invade your parents home kill your daughter and displace your grandparents? No? Then how the fuck do you excuse Russia doing the same.