[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Can you show the variations for this poking?

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The thing is that if it becomes a ko, white doesn't actually have to save both sides, but can leverage that and make an exchange for the whole upper right black group. I haven't counted, but feels like roughly an even trade. And we are back to count the ko threats if black didn't want to sacrifice the upper right and continue the ko. (or if it is not an even trade? and we are up to yose)

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

From the last black move, I assume it has something to do with the whole center white group's life and death. I haven't read it out, but looks like it might eventually be a ko in the center (very big ko)

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Hmm, from I remember, black seems to be able to play bN8 after the bO8 bO7 (if white choose to play wL11 bK11, wK12 to cut off the black (or if white doesn't respond locally, black can just easily connect back, and white is already too far behind), And L11 is where AI seems to be blind to life and death, and shorten its own group's liberties.

If white doesn't choose to take the 3 black stones after the bO8, bO7, bN8, and choose to continue to push P8, black can just block with P9. White has to connect M8, and black can play L10, and white cannot connect M9 (or black connect N5 the whole white group dies). And white would have to capture with N5, black can throw in M9, wN9 capture, bO9, white again cannot connect M9, or bO4 kills all. Hence, the only option for white is to play O4, and black would be able to kill all the M10 white group stones. (this is effectively connect and die problem, and the commentator that day, along with Fujisawa I think, all read these out)

Hence, the best option to keep that M10 group and minimize the lost is to play N5 to capture 3 black stones first right after black K14, and let black to cut off the two K15 K16 white stones (Fujisawa had the chance to save those two stones before, and the game might go into yose, but she played H15 and allow Ueno to push and cut)

1
submitted 2 years ago by countingtls@lemmy.ml to c/cell_lab@lemmy.ml

I think I have a plan of borrowing my printing head design ideas to merge multiple cell lines into a truly massive swarm.

The idea is simple, instead of cramp them all into one, we create each cell line for their individual functions

  • harvesters/worker drones that would go out to harvest plants (swimming out in all directions to find the plant harvesting area of light, and when energy storage lipocytes are sufficient, grow a light aversion senseocyte to return to the home base in the dark side). I have some "pheromone" ideas, but they are not as robust and simple as this
  • Patrols/soldier drones, those follow the worker's color/signal. Which might be a way of "depositing" pheromone color cells. Since they wouldn't feed themselves, so they will eventually die, and if we time their life span just right, we can make them only last a distance less than from the home base to food source. Their corpses will leave a trail of food when them pop, and many allow the worker to follow, and not just blindly search the light source.
  • Nanny drones that use secrocyte to either provide the signals to bring egg in the form of stemocyte into the next larva phase, and would devour the harvester's lipocytes for energy, and even collect and group the leftover lipocytes connected with keratinocyte near the queen (attracted to both the lipocyte color and the egg colors)
  • Caretakers with secrocyte that can produce protease to consume the "protected lipocytes food storage" and sacrifice themselves or burp the food to the queens (or this can be done by a variation of nannies that act as living food storage themselves, by converting keratin protected lipocyte into direct energies where they can be glued to the queen)
  • And finally the queen itself, essentially a variation of my print head design that glue the starting stemocytes to the "birth channel" which will create each drone caste (instead of printing a string). The senseocytes can use colors as the activation, instead of S1 to S4 signals, hence the queen's "control" can be done behind an enclosed "brain" (which again can be a different cell lines, so we have even more cell modes to work with). And the larva growth pad can even be the extension of the birth channel just outside the funnel, and attract larva, with constant burping of food particle. Or the larva can also swim to and be glued to the growth pad, where another version of the caretaker drones "provide" the food.

In terms of drones, I think beside the pheromone mechanism and the caretaker mechanism I haven't fully resolved, the others are definitely doable, or been done before.

The most difficult part of this, might be the brain state control. Effectively, we need a control and detect mechanism for producing different number of internal "color state cells". The number of drones in each caste depends on a lot of factors, obviously when the food lipocytes are low, we need to produce more harvesters (or when the queen haven't "seen" caretaker drones near its feeding heads, more caretakers and harvesters will be "printed". Or sensocytes near the growth bed that detect the nanny dronee, and when they died or leave the area too far, indicating too few nannies to print. The patrol drones are harder to control, but not necessary needed if we don't use them, or just print a certain ratio of them related to the harvesters. The issue though is that these detection areas might be quite far from the internal brain color state area, and how to relay them effectively. Or do we need some internal "messenger drones" that travel between sensing areas and the brain receptor?

Another final question is that do we have enough cell count to scale up to this level. Individual parts and drones definitely would work, but I think around 10000 cells, the lag would start to get very troublesome. Each drone might be about 10 cells each, and the energy required to travel on a large substrate (maybe 5mm? even 6mm?) for room to set up such complex queen (and the nest) will be enormous. Harvesters need to be very efficient in travelling and transporting, and there will be a limit for how many cells the queen can sustain. (but in the early development we might have to compromise, and glue some photocytes and turn up the light for energy, just to demonstrate that this could work in principle)--

4
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by countingtls@lemmy.ml to c/baduk@lemmy.ml

Besides this being a news for Ichiriki Ryo now had a lead of 3 to 1 against Iyama Yuta (just 1 more win to get the Honinbo title), the scoring of this game also showed a quite rare situation, when they played more than 361 moves (total 364 moves for this game). One side completely filled up during manual scoring, and had to count stones off the board.

In the case of this game, it was filled to one side with 4 space left on the board for black, and 3 extra white stones off the board, hence 4 vs -3, so black win by 0.5 in the end { 4 - (-3) - 6.5 komi}. (If you found odd that the total count are 360 stones, but there are 364 moves, it is because they run out of stones, so they had to exchange two prisoners during the final dame filling phase in order to finish the game)

The sgf record can be found here http://eidogo.com/#Pbj2YrFZ:0,364

BTW, this is also a game where the Japanese rule and the Chinese rule give different results. With 6.5 komi, the Japanese rule gives B+0.5, but with 7.5 komi in the Chinese rule, it is W+0.5 (or W+1/4 子 with Chinese half counting of total 184 black area => {184 - 3.75 - 180.5 = -0.25}). Also notice, this is not solely because the Chinese rule has more komi, but more to do with white plays the last move. In games where black plays the last move, the result might be the same (cases with seki and how the last ko is filled can raise more tricky situations and differences).

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yes, 圖 is a very general word, not just for weiqi. It means anything that can be shown as "image-like", anything that you can draw. For game record/kifu we usually use the word 譜 or more specifically 棋譜 (in fact this is how the word kifu came from ki = 棋, fu = 譜). But you can also use a more general word to describe a kifu showing as an image (i.e. 圖). And in ancient time, this word would generally mean a game position.

You can also use more descriptive adj words to narrow it down, like 變化圖 (which would means variations image/diagram), what's important is the adj words before it, not the word 圖 itself that describes the meaning. (like 布局圖 opening diagram -> fuseki). But adj in general can be "omitted", hence we can write 圖 1 (diagram 1) 圖 2 (diagram 2) instead of using the whole word 變化圖1, 變化圖2 (if we already know the context is about variations).

If you want to translate it accurately, you need the context within (or even before and after) a paragraph in order to get its precise meaning.

8
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by countingtls@lemmy.ml to c/baduk@lemmy.ml

This is a game played on June 19 between Ueno Asami (as black) and Fujisawa Rina (as white). At move 159, Asami cut with K14.

It involves a followup of the life and death of the white group M10, and most human players would be able to judge it, but AI (from Golaxy to Katago) all seem to deem it "alive" and continue to fight without securing the life of that group first. While a human player can read out the sequence like Rina did during the game and make the right choice.

But it takes like 10k+ playouts before AI realize the K14 cut is a very good move, and (with few playouts AI even judges K14 as a blunder). And it takes millions of playouts before AI realizes the M10 white group is in trouble.

What other AI blindspots and hallucinations have you seen in real games?

1
submitted 2 years ago by countingtls@lemmy.ml to c/baduk@lemmy.ml

Kids are creative, and smart kids will get bored very quickly, even if repeat exercises are necessary practice for them.

(There is no badukshitposting community on lemmy. Maybe we should accommodate more diverse posts here).

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

If you got rigorous training from a young age (normally started at the age of 6 or 7, from the 1st grade), normally you can reach dan level in a couple of years, before 10.

7
submitted 2 years ago by countingtls@lemmy.ml to c/baduk@lemmy.ml

I've heard of the "carving" about weiqi, but never actually saw it, or even saw a picture of it till I start researching the history.

The report in the link was written by the head of the Luoyang Weiqi Museum, so I am farily confident the authetisty of the pictures she took. And I will make a brief translation and introduction below:

First of all, these carvings are called 畫像石. a very specific styles of carvings used in the Han Dynasty China (the 2nd century BC to the 2nd century AD). So very high confident it is of its time.

Here are the overall picture of the stone the carving is from

The dimension is 254 cm in length, 85 cm in height, and 26 cm thick, weight more than 1000 kg.

We can see other recreation activities next to the "博弈", people were dancing and playing some kind of instrument (likely some kind of drum, or bell).

There are other carvings of some daily activities in the back of the stone as well

In the close up shot, we can see there are two types of game boards carved on the stone, one is Go in the front, and another smaller board on the side, called (where only recently we've uncovered the actual game board for it), and Go has been associated with it for a very long time - "博弈". We are certain they were both quite prominate during the Han Dynasty (probably more for 博 than weiqi).

Very hard to make out the number of lines on the carving, it degraded quite a bit. But it is for sure more than 9 lines or 13 lines, and on the range at least 15 plus even up to 19. (simply cannot tell for sure, and cannot rule out the original stone worker made it incorrectly to begin with)

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

The culture and tradition of Go is very prominate here. Education of Go is also easier to access here, like although I know of the game because of my family (I was so young I couldn't even remember a time I didn't know), but I was trained through rigerous Go classes from very young age.

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

This is such a famous story, and probably true to a degree. However, there is no mention of Guan Yu playing Go in the original text from Records of the Three Kingdoms (三國志 is a historical book, written in the late 3rd century AD, just decades after this said event happened), and it didn't even specific who was the doctor, just said he was still drinking and eating like nothing. The more vivid descriptions came from the 14th century novelization of the Three Kingdoms - Romance of the Three Kingdoms (三國演義), which was more than a thousand years later.

There are a lot of depictions of this event, since Guan Yu had since raised to the status of divinity in Chinese fork religions, and we can see many art, murals, and wall statues about Guan Yu in his temples or related temples.

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

From what I've read, they (around Han dynasty) basically just put everything a person would use in life in their tomb, from vessels, house wares, daily objects, clothes, even food, wine, and figurines as servants, or if someone had a military position, their weapons, horses, armors, etc. So if someone loved to play Go in life, likely their family will put a Go set into the tomb. And they would even write what would go inside a tomb in a checklist and seal it in with the tomb as well, like helping the dead to organize and check if they miss anything.

The tradition of treating the dead family members like they were still alive, still persist today, like there is a special holiday (清明節) in every year, specifically for this purpose. We would visit those had passed away in their graveyards, organize and clean things up, and told them what had happened in the past year.

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

you got the comment posted.

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

And the white (yellowish white) stones are made of bronze. It must have cost a fortune for a set. The tomb where it is unearthed is a joint tomb for the royal prince and his wife (they died in the late 1st century and the early 2nd century)

The second-oldest set of black and white stones are literally made of polished pebble stones, and about the same size, around 1.2 cm to 1.5 cm, dug up from a Jin Dynasty official's tomb in the 3rd century. Probably also cost quite a bit.

From the original word of 棊, it is very likely commoner's or less rich nobles would use pieces made of wood, or other less expensive materials like clay pottery before this time period. But they were unlikely to survive the passage of time, or very hard to tell them apart when surface paints wore off. I once read there are lots of beads unearth in many ancient tombs around this or earlier periods, they were usually contributed as divining tools, or just pure decorative items, but if there are enough of them unearthed, we cannot not rule out they might have been recreational use like game pieces or even Go "stones", and they might not even need to be round, we might have missed a lot of irregular shaped pieces, or even square pieces. The increased popularity of Go later in Tang and Song Dynasty as some kind of fashion, might have come from the advance in glassmaking and ceramic making technologies, and they finally were able to mass produce high quality "stones".

8
submitted 2 years ago by countingtls@lemmy.ml to c/baduk@lemmy.ml

This is from an exhibit at the Suzhou museum last year. The topic of the exhibit is - "Restoration of Peace, the Four Faces of Han Dynasty Civilization", about archeological finds from Han Dynasty China near Suzhou.

The stones are made of a type of glass and not necessary "black and white" but blue and slightly yellow white. (or they might have been darker and lighter, but the colors degraded or changed over time). It was found in a tomb of a Han dynasty high royal prince. They didn't find a board, but a cloth with lines drawn on it and too degraded to know how many lines it was.

So it is possible that we didn't find many old game boards (or older than Han dynasty), not due to out of luck (or as some suggested Go was invented in Han dynasty), but because ancient players faced the same issue we are, and find it impractical to carry giant wood or stone slaps as gobans, and chose lighter materials like cloth or leather and draw grid on them as the board. Much cheaper and easier to produce.

[-] countingtls@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Family traditions, My grandfather played Go, my father, my brother, and now my niece and nephew.

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countingtls

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