75

I feel like often people ask me "Oh yea? Name some examples." and the burden is on me to prove something by providing representative examples. But often it's so overwhelming how many examples there are for something that I feel obligated then to either list everything, or try extra hard to find good examples, and even then I feel like I could be misrepresenting the case by not providing enough examples. Basically I feel like I would have to give many, many examples, or none at all, otherwise anything in the middle could be non-representative of the true trend.

Ironically, now you will want me to give examples of situations that I'm talking about. But for this I will provide 2 examples and rest on good faith that you will believe me (given the context of this post) that this happens much more often than I care to provide examples for.

So one example is when you are attempting to prove to someone that a certain thing is scientifically proven or is agreed upon as scientific consensus. You can look to the generally agreed hierarchy of evidence and provide what it considers to be high-quality evidence, such as meta analyses and systematic reviews, but even then there can be disagreement between specific reports, and there can be outliers that disagree with the overall most common trends or findings. So the only way to really prove something is to provide many, many different instances of scientific evidence to the point where the other person would be unable to find the same level or amount of evidence to the contrary by virtue of the fact that it doesn't exist to the same overwhelming degree, essentially proving the scientific fact. But again, this takes either an enormous amount of high quality evidence from various different sources, or nothing at all and simply an assertion that something is in fact scientifically proven or agreed upon as scientific consensus, because anything else in the middle could misrepresent the case and make it seem less substantiated than it actually is. It's either "all or nothing".

And now I'll provide a specific anecdote about someone who argued that there are no decent stories with a female main protagonist. I am so sure and believe it to be so obvious that there is an extensive history of great female main protagonists and female-driven stories, in all forms of storytelling, that I found this an overwhelming task to attempt to prove when the person asked for specific examples. How can I make the case of the wealth of good stories with female main characters without providing an exhaustive (or highly numerous) list? Even if I pick a few great examples, the person can always make the objection that "Those are an exception, and they don't represent the overall trend." and I risk misrepresenting that trend if the examples chosen aren't the best ones available, too. How can you possibly prove something like that without a very long and well-thought out and extensively researched list? Again, it seems like it's either attempt such a daunting task, or don't engage with the request for examples at all and just assert the claim that there are many examples, without specifying any to avoid the risk of taking on the burden of proving it and possibly misrepresenting the trend.

I hope this made any sense at all.

all 32 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago

You are definitely over-thinking this.

Your hearts in the right place, but this is the Internet, you're not going to convince anyone of anything. You can have all the best examples, but people are just going to waste your time asking for more, or shooting down your examples with bullshit. There are no right answers, because everyone's looking to hear what they want and are eager to let you know when they disagree.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago

That's what debating atheists is like in a nutshell

[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

That's funny, I had the opposite in mind while writing it.

[-] Aleric@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

LOL. Why would you care to debate atheists? Assuming you follow an Abrahamic religion, you have your bipolar sky wizard with his bizarre, inconsistent mythos, while we have standards of evidence for what we believe.

While we do poke fun at the religious, most of us ultimately don't care what you believe. We do care about the batshit actions taken by the ostensibly religious to enforce their personal beliefs on others, presented in the guise of religion. If the latter isn't you, we're typically not concerned. So why do you care?

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

Because I care about you. I care about your souls.

[-] SpacetimeMachine@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Well I can tell you that you're debating on vain then. You're never gonna convince an atheist until you have solid evidence of a higher power. And trust me, you don't.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

What sort of evidence would convince you?

[-] maryjayjay@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

If I told you that dogs exist and you didn't believe me, what kind of evidence would you want to see?

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

But that's a created thing, not a higher being.

[-] Aleric@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't even know if I have a soul. I'll probably find out in the next thirty years.

I worry about the capacity for the religious to engage in active critical thinking, something that is necessary for a thriving, functional society but needs to be -at least temporarily- suspended to be religious, but I'm generally not going to debate theists over that point because it's disrespectful of their beliefs. It's also completely fruitless and frustrating to engage in debates with someone whose arguments aren't grounded in observable, testable phenomena. They'll always "win" because they can make up whatever they want.

Anyhow, we largely leave you alone, please leave us alone too. We'd appreciate it. With that being said, you have my encouragement to go hard, Galilee guns blazing, on any atheists who give you shit for being a theist.

[-] twack@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

The whole existence of an abrahamic God is self defeating at its basic premise.

If God is all knowing, all good, and all powerful, then he either designed all of this, including Satan, as some fucked up experiment, or he is not perfect and he messed up somewhere.

There are no other options.

[-] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

Most of the time, these people are not arguing in good faith. It's called sealioning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

It says a lot that I've been following politics for years, and I'm only having to learn terms like this and 'Gish Gallop' now.

[-] Mindhunter@lemmy.today 4 points 1 year ago

Yep i think too much people pulled this on me .

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think you’re talking to some people who, in bad faith, are demanding “proof” when they need to learn how to acknowledge “evidence.” Someone with a fixed attitude will keep moving goalposts and cherry picking outliers until the cows come home, and you need to be able to say: your bias is overwhelming in the gymnastics you perform to avoid the clear evidence. The process of science most often doesn’t produce black and white results. Anti-vaxxers are gonna anti-vax and you can’t “persuade” them.

That said, if you can’t provide 7-8 stories with female protagonists, which are very popular, you’re not even trying. His Dark Materials. Moana. The Fault in Our Stars. The Fablehaven series. Frozen. Labyrinth. Heathers. The Force Awakens. Silo. Mulan. Legend of Korra and the Kyoshi novels. The Sarah Connor Chronicles. 16 Candles. Star Trek Voyager. Anne of Green Gables. Watchmen (2019 series). Jane Eyre. Pippi Longstocking. Captain Marvel. Aliens. Amelie. Arrival. Gravity. Little House on the Prairie. Game of Thrones. Coraline. You There, God? It’s Me, Margaret.

If you’re really talking to someone who says “there are no stories with…” then here’s enough to easily force them to change their position to “there are far less stories with…” and at that point they would in fact be correct.

[-] owen@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

You simply can't convince people who are willfully ignorant. I'm sorry you wrote all that for such a lame response but it's the fact of the matter. Their minds might change slowly over the years but they'll never switch on a dime.

[-] ghostdoggtv@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

When it comes to arguments about science most people don't understand how science works. Stop thinking you have to conduct a PhD defense for shitty trolls. In your other example you won the argument and fell for a shifting of goalposts.

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

I'll join the chorus.

If something is scientifically proven, just tell them to read the books.

If someone says there are no strong female protagonists, just name three and walk away.

Don't engage with negative people

[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago
[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Alien, Aliens, Alien Resurrection!

I'm also a fan of 1960s comic strip/pulp novel heroine Modesty Blaise, a teenage refugee turned crime boss turned spy.

[-] Nibodhika@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Games: Tomb raider, Life is strange, Control

Movies: Taking lives, Bone collector, Silence of the lambs

Movies (just because the first three that I thought were all the same genre): Carrie, Alien, Arrival

Movie franchises: Hunger games, Twilight, Star wars episode 7-9

Tv shows: Law and order SVU, Bones, Sabrina

Books: Monstrous Regiment, Alice in wonderland, The handmaid's tale

Comics: Coraline, Wonder woman, Supergirl

These are just the first 3 of every category I thought of.

[-] pugsnroses77@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago

it seems like you are trying to have genuine debates with people who just want to argue. what happens on the flipside? do people provide you with evidence/examples when you ask? does it change your mind?

[-] Addition1291@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

You can lead someone to knowledge but you can't make em think.

Can you hit them with the book?

[-] BigMikeInAustin@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

"Well, since you are over 20 years old and are still unaware of any examples, you obviously cannot comprehend the examples that most of the adult society already knows. I'll let you know when I find a toddler's coloring book about this."

Okay I just had this happen to me. Someone just commented "citation needed" to something I said. Instead of engaging them on this comment I merely replied. Asking them if there was anything meaningful they wish to add. It worked wonders, no reply and they were hit with some nice down voting.

[-] shani66@ani.social 3 points 1 year ago

You are asking how to argue with someone arguing in bad faith. You don't. You ignore them, or if you think you are pretty good with words you could belittle them for the people watching, but you won't convince them.

[-] Yots92@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

"It is vast, easy to reach, do it yourself if you care"

[-] SeahorseTreble@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I like that.

[-] bloom_of_rakes@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Give it a name. Describe it as "ineffable" or "incomprehensibly vast". Easy.

We talk about stuff that we don't understand all the time. We don't even need to have a reason.

[-] JackLSauce@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

More people always read the top-level comment

Certainly cite sources when relevant but never argue with a reply

this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
75 points (100.0% liked)

No Stupid Questions

42485 readers
570 users here now

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here. This includes using AI responses and summaries.



Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS