Farmer ordered to pay after judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance : worldnews

[-] Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com 86 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

People, the defendant had a history of using 👍to accept a contract with the aggrieved. Had done it NP a dozen times before. He was trying to use a technicality to weasel out of breaching a contract he obviously agreed to when he couldn’t fulfill it.

[-] OldManCoffee@midwest.social 16 points 2 years ago

Not only that but by the end of the contract price was up, so farmer would not make as much as on the free market.

[-] IronDonkey@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Did the article actually say he accepted with thumbs up before? Thought it just said he'd accepted via text.

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[-] OnionFutures@vlemmy.net 81 points 2 years ago

I don't think this is particularly surprising. Handshakes can form legal contracts, and contracts can be formed orally. There's no reason why an image couldn't indicate acceptance of a contract, generally speaking (certain specific types of contract may require additional formalities).

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 25 points 2 years ago

Handshakes can form legal contracts, and contracts can be formed orally.

While true, these are terrible forms of contract agreement for anything of value, and specifically when there are no witnesses. One person could easily claim that "I heard them say something else" or "We didn't shake on anything!".

As for emojis, you can interpret them in 101 ways, and that's assuming both parties are using the same emoji icon set! Some look different depending on the platform, and some have completely different meanings without even knowing it! When I get an emoji on my business email, it doesn't even show up as an emoji!

A "thumbs up", in my book, is not an agreement to a contract. I want a clear written acknowledgement and/or a signature. Anything less could be hard to prove or completely denied as even happening.

[-] OnionFutures@vlemmy.net 18 points 2 years ago

Completely agree, and anyone with any foresight would insist on something more robust. But very often the courts have to deal with situations where the parties did not have that foresight and instead proceeded to do business with one another on the basis of informal or very flimsily documented arrangements. And it falls to the court to look at what little evidence there is and determine (to the extent they can) whether there was an agreement and, if so, what the agreement entailed.

You would actually be surprised just how much business is conducted like this.

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 years ago

You would actually be surprised just how much business is conducted like this.

I'm sure I'd be surprised!

To be honest, I feel that the defendant's argument that “I did not have time to review the Flax Contract and merely wanted to indicate that I did receive his text message.”, is valid, since he interpreted the thumbs up as a sign of acknowledgement, not an acceptance to the contract.

The courts, however, used a third party's interpretation of what the emoji could mean, which I don't think was right.

"Achter’s lawyers argued that allowing an emoji to act as a signature or acceptance for contracts would open the flood gates for cases interpreting the meaning of the images."

I totally agree with that sentiment.

Imagine texting your spouse various food emojis, including an eggplant, hot dog, banana, and peach, as you were at the grocery store. Your spouse comes back with a thumb's up emoji. Would the courts say that the spouse was agreeing to consensual sex or a shopping list? There are so many ways I can see this ruling creating problems where none currently exist.

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 2 years ago

Would the courts say that the spouse was agreeing to consensual sex or a shopping list?

Context matters and I'd call this a straw man argument.

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[-] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 3 points 2 years ago

"Achter’s lawyers argued that allowing an emoji to act as a signature or acceptance for contracts would open the flood gates for cases interpreting the meaning of the images."

I totally agree with that sentiment.

When it comes down to it, is the thumbs up emoji really that different than a "yes," "X," or a signature? In the past people just gave their mark when agreeing to something and it doesn't appear that there were any standards as to what that mark would be. If someone hands you a contract and you write an 'X' on the signature line, how does that differ from an actual signature?

Letters and language are meant to convey meaning and it seems that meaning was conveyed here. Someone else also commented that this person had a history of using the emoji to agree to things which just lends further credence to my point.

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 years ago

I think the argument is that both parties need to be clear that they understand what an acceptable form of approval would be. If that's an "x", or a signature, or a verbal approval, great, but both parties need to agree to this.

In this case, it's clear that the defendant didn't intend to use the thumbs up as an approval of the contract, so the courts should have been on his side.

Plus, for an $80,000 contract, you'd think there would be at least another confirmation that the order was placed or to confirm a day/time that delivery would be made? It almost feels like the plaintiff was banking on tricking the defendant into agreeing to something by accident, rather than being a professional about it.

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[-] MeetInPotatoes@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

A single character emoji could easily be a typo as well.

[-] Vlyn@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

👍 can also be sarcastic, like your contract is so dumb, I'm not even properly replying to it. Such a dumb ruling.

[-] Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 years ago

Don't make snap judgements about rulings. Especially just on article titles. In this particular case the defendant had a history of using 👍to accept a contract. Had done it NP a dozen times before. He was trying to use a technicality to weasel out of breaching a contract when he couldn't fulfill it.

[-] SomeoneElse@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

I wonder what amount of damages he was ordered to pay?

[-] Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 years ago

$82000CAD

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[-] Hypnoctopus@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

In this particular case the defendant had a history of using 👍to accept a contract. Had done it NP a dozen times before

The article doesn’t say that. It says that according to the guy who sued him, he used text message before to accept a contract. It doesn’t say that he had ever responded to a contract with a thumbs up emoji before.

“Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order.”

No mention of thumbs up emoji having been used prior to this particular thumbs up emoji incident.

[-] Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 years ago

As such, to decide what the thumbs up emoji meant in this case, Justice Keene of the Saskatchewan Court of King’s Bench considered how the farmer had communicated with the grain buyer in the past. Typically, the grain buyer would text a photo of the contract to the farmer and ask him to confirm the contract. The farmer would then text back, saying “looks good”, “ok”, or “yup”. The grain buyer and farmer would then proceed on the basis they had a contract. The farmer’s brief affirmative responses therefore meant agreement, not mere acknowledgement of receipt.

Justice Keene found that “👍” [thumbs up] was equivalent to the farmer’s previous responses like “looks good”, “ok”, and “yup”, which all signified agreement. As such, the farmer had entered into a valid and binding contract with the grain buyer. https://www.mckercher.ca/resources/rule-of-thumb-can-an-emoji-be-a-signature

[-] tom@lemmy.fmhy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

You've got a point, there's some danger here, but I would have zero sympathy if someone ignored the fact that sarcasm isn't communicated well in text.

I don't know, I think a thumbs up is clear acceptance tbh.

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[-] Darkard@lemmy.world 35 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

👍

[-] ug01x@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

That'll be $82,000 to the federation.

/s

[-] bappity@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

👍

[-] julianh@lemm.ee 6 points 2 years ago

👍

[-] Toto@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

👍

[-] MacroCyclo@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 years ago

According to the courts you agree with this post and have not simply read the post.

[-] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 19 points 2 years ago

“I did not have time to review the Flax Contract and merely wanted to indicate that I did receive his text message.”

This is what the 👀 emoji is for, is it not? "I am acknowledging seeing this."

[-] 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world 27 points 2 years ago

That's not really how 👀 is used these days among the young folk, but I wouldn't expect a random Canadian farmer to know that either.

I don't think that a thumbs up emoji should be a valid signature. The farmer was responding to "please confirm flax contract" and the thumbs up emoji really could mean "I've seen your text and will look at the contract to confirm/deny soon." Although the article did also mention that the same type of acceptance had happened previously with this farmer where the contracts were treated as valid and fulfilled so the farmer is probably disingenuous with their argument.

[-] PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

I would use 👀 that way. What else would it be?

[-] Vulnicura@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It's alluding to being interested.

[-] valek879@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

Surprise and or shock? Wariness? They look like cartoon eyes on like Wile-E-Coyote or Tom when they realize they're still holding the dynamite. 🧨 👀 😨

[-] 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

It's more like "look at this shit"/"you seeing this?"/“whoa” for general stuff. Or sometimes with a slightly inappropriate joke or flirting the eyes acknowledge that and lessen it - like saying jk did back in the day.

In this context if I sent a contract to someone younger and they responded 👀 I might have to doublecheck if something was glaringly wrong with it.

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[-] sergih123@eslemmy.es 12 points 2 years ago

Many times I've gotten the thumbs up as a way to indicate that someone received a message, however it'll only be read later, it can mean that they're doing smt at the moment.

[-] Toto@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Judge should have mandated the legally less ambiguous 💦🍆 combo to agree to a contract

[-] m3adow@feddit.de 3 points 2 years ago

Not according to dictionary.com which the judge referred to for the thumbs up.

They should update the meaning, I also know it as a "read receipt".

[-] SheeEttin@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

If I was going to read a text and respond to it later, I would just... respond to it later.

Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.

[-] 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

A lot of people hate being "left on read" where they see a programmed read receipt but aren't actually acknowledged. Or for messages without programmed read receipts it does that as well. The thumbs up is also supposed to end conversations quickly.

[-] average650@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

It's very believable that the farmer would not know the difference.

[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago

I do business over text in amounts similar to this. I won't accept a contract with a thumbs up. But a change request, sure.

"Okay, we will ship you a spare set of cables at a cost of $10/day, plus shipping expenses. Please acknowledge this as acceptable"

👍

[-] Hypnoctopus@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

It is completely absurd to rule an emoji as an agreement to a contract.

[-] stown@sedd.it 9 points 2 years ago

Everything needs proper context. We shouldn't make decisions based on headlines.

[-] Hypnoctopus@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

Yes, I read it. Did you? It said:

"Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order."

It does not say that the argument was made that he previously agreed to a contract through text message _ by sending a single 👍_.

This is the context we have through the article, and so no, a single emoji as a binding contract is ridiculous.

[-] Chrisosaur@startrek.website 5 points 2 years ago

Even when he’d accepted contract numerous times before using that exact emoji?

[-] Hypnoctopus@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

According to the article:

"Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order."

It does not say he accepted any contracts in the past using that emoji. It says that according to the guy who sued him, he has accepted contracts through text message.

[-] Chrisosaur@startrek.website 3 points 2 years ago

What exactly does acceptance look like to you? He was offered a contract, gave it a thumbs up, and delivered the goods for the price specified in the contract. It would be ridiculous NOT to treat that as accepting the contract.

[-] Hypnoctopus@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

What exactly does acceptance look like to you? He was offered a contract, gave it a thumbs up, and delivered the goods for the price specified in the contract. It would be ridiculous NOT to treat that as accepting the contract.

Will you clarify: "He was offered a contract, gave it a thumbs up, and delivered the goods for the price specified in the contract."?

The article says he didn't deliver the goods for the price after sending a thumbs up.

[-] Chrisosaur@startrek.website 2 points 2 years ago

This time. He had followed the pattern of contract offer, thumbs up, contract fulfilled numerous times before.

[-] Hypnoctopus@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

The article doesn't say that. It says that according to the guy who sued him, he used text message before to accept a contract. It doesn't say that he had ever responded to a contract with a thumbs up emoji before.

"Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order."

No mention of thumbs up emoji having been used prior to this particular thumbs up emoji incident. Are you referencing an alternate source?

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[-] bappity@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

💩

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