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[-] EatYouWell@lemmy.world 52 points 11 months ago

Yeah, that's not what Stockholm Syndrome is.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I was thinking about a character in a TV show. He’s a Christian monk who is captured by Viking raiders and kept as a slave. He’s still quite young though. And while he has no freedom, he isn’t whipped or treated like an animal, he just lives as a very low status person. Eventually, after years, he starts wanting to improve his status with the tribe around him. Maybe he’s tired of being at the bottom. Maybe he’s just starving for some kind of human connection. When they come under threat, he asks to join the Viking fighting force. This seems like pretty clear Stockholm Syndrome to me - fighting for the people who enslaved you.

But is it really that different from waking up as a child in a certain culture and over time, absorbing its ways, and feeling the desire to grow your status in that society? How many people absorb their home culture’s ways because they think about them and deem them best? It’s a process of absorption.

So yes, while there’s always a little sass and irony in showerthoughts, I think there’s a connection here with pondering. You didn’t elaborate on your “yeah no” comment at all. Perhaps now you will?

[-] EatYouWell@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

Yes, siding with your captors is different from being raised in a culture.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

You’re really big on bald assertions.

[-] EatYouWell@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

I'm big on words having meaning and not using words with specific meanings incorrectly.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Apparently you’ve also never heard of similes or learned anything through comparisons. Enjoy your robotic application of strict denotations to the objects in your world.

[-] EatYouWell@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

You can compare anything with a simile if you abstract it far enough. It doesn't make it an accurate statement, though. I'm sure you could find similarities between Bambi and Hitler, but that doesn't mean the two are interchangeable.

Stockholm Syndrome and cultural indoctrination are two different things. Stockholm Syndrome is a defense mechanism.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Oh my god you actually included one explanatory sentence there at the end. Imagine if you built an entire argument.

[-] EatYouWell@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

It's alright to admit you were mistaken.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

I hope it’s also all right to admit when I’m bored, because I think I’ve already given you far too many opportunities to press that “no, I’m correct” button you seem to enjoy so much.

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[-] ripcord@kbin.social 34 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This is one of the ways that I know none of the religions claiming to be the "truth" are true.

99.99% of the time, your religion is based on who your parents are and where you were born, not what is actually true.

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[-] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 30 points 11 months ago

Not in my case, I think. Very stereotypical conservative, religious parents. Have rejected many of their bigoted values, kept the work ethic, tried to carry empathy to it's logical conclusion rather than stopping when they thought it was hard. I've changed religions. I think my country's military policy is abhorrent.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

“But not me!”

—everyone

[-] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 11 points 11 months ago

You wrote "all". Seems a lot of people disagree with "all".

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Didn’t I just say that everyone thinks they are special? I’m quite aware that they do. That doesn’t make it true.

[-] cheesemoo@lemmy.conk.me 4 points 11 months ago

You're essentially saying that "nobody is special", which seems unlikely. Someone's gotta be!

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Now now. I said everyone thinks they are special but that doesn’t make it true. I absolutely did NOT say that no one is special. That’s a different statement.

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[-] ElBarto@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago

That's exactly what a person with Stockholm syndrome would say!....... /s

[-] z00s@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

But how do you feel about universal healthcare?

[-] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 14 points 11 months ago

That it's a wonderful thing and to let people suffer because of profit is evil.

[-] z00s@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Good on you

[-] Candelestine@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago

I mean, yea. The whole idea is that you want to survive in whatever environment you were born into, whether that's North Sentinel Island or the Siberian taiga or downtown Mexico City. So, the homo sapiens operating system is pretty flexible, you can put whatever you want on it. This food, that food, this music, that music, it's all subjective. You just calibrated to your environment.

Started in the womb, your moms amniotic fluid can change flavors depending on what mom ate, which has some influence on a baby's preferences.

The fact that our environments vary so much, and there's a lot of rng in general, gives us a lot of the diversity we're so fond of. None of it stays static either, it's all flowing and changing over time, so, the flexible operating system really is necessary. No fucking clue what a baby is gonna be asked to do in 30 years, might be anything from a soldier to a doctor. Well, doctor might take a few more years...

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Exactly. We all adapt to what’s around us. Which, for me, explains how prisoners can eventually come to help their kidnappers. People consider Stockholm Syndrome incredibly strange, unexplainable. But it’s the basic thing we are built to do.

[-] BananaPeal@sh.itjust.works 14 points 11 months ago

Pssh, not me. I was born into a homophobic redneck culture and I hated it. I now consider myself an LGBTQ+ ally and computer nerd.

[-] tiredofsametab@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago

Same. I grew up in rural Ohio (USA) going to churches talking about the "synagogues of satan", people at school saying "that's Jewish" for something lame, lots of words I won't repeat here about a number of ethnic and sexual minorities, etc.

It all basically never sat well with me. I moved out when my mom remarried which was a bit before my senior year of high school. Bigger city, bigger school, more diversity, etc. quickly proved what I had long felt: humans are humans and neither their religion nor ethnicity nor gender identity changed that. This would have been in the late '90s.

I now live on the other side of the world from that place (Japan, of course, having its own issues with things like gender and racism, but that's (a) mostly the older generations and (b) a story for another time). Before I quit facebook years ago, I did catch up with a couple of people. Most of them did not change, but many of the bad ones got worse (this would have been around 2016) and emboldened by far-right groups growing in popularity. Living as a minority in another country also taught me a lot of about privilege and accidental racism.

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[-] Poggervania@kbin.social 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

It’s even more fucky when you start to consider if the ideals, values, and beliefs you hold are actually ones you yourself have determined, or if you’ve just chosen those because it’s been passed onto you either by culture, society, or your environment.

Take the old adage “treat others how you would want to be treated” - is that something you believe because you’ve just been told that for so long? Or is that something you intrinsically believe in regardless of what others have said? It’s only an example, and I’m not honestly even sure if it conveys that idea 100%, but shit like that keeps me up man lol.

[-] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 7 points 11 months ago

Take the old adage “treat others how you would want to be treated” - is that something you believe because you’ve just been told that for so long? Or is that something you intrinsically believe in regardless of what others have said?

For what it's worth, this is essentially the "tit-for-tat" strategy from game theory, and you can rigorously prove it to be a superior cooperative strategy in many situations. Essentially, cooperation with others enables greater community success than everyone going alone, but trusting others always exposes you to selfish people that will take advantage of you. The optimal strategy is to cooperate by default, but if someone reveals themselves to be untrustworthy, stop cooperating and ideally work with others to punish them.

You actually see this bear out in nature in other animals as well. Vampire bats will share blood with other vampire bats that didn't successfully feed, but they also keep track of individual contributions, and if they identify that a bat is freeloading, they'll stop feeding it. By default, they cooperate to help each other, but if a selfish actor is identified, they stop helping it.

In the abstract, so long as most actors aren't selfish and the cost of being betrayed isn't too high, tit-for-tat is the optimal strategy.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

It’s a good sign that it keeps you up. Few people ever think about this stuff.

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[-] PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com 10 points 11 months ago

Basically what I think about gun support. It's statistically awful to be around guns or be around those with guns. But we still have them and some of us fight for them because they feel safer when they're really, really not.

[-] stevecole90099@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Guns aren't safe. They aren't supposed to be safe, or at least they aren't supposed to be any safer than any other tool. They are a tool that is very specifically designed to grant their user an increased ability to injure a target with ease from a safe distance. This ability grants the user an increased ability to hunt, to defend themselves, to defend their property and family, and yes to harm or kill other people and predators.

A hammer, a knife, a blunt object, and a car can all provide these same abilities with differing efficiency, but we still have them, too, even though they aren't necessary. You don't need to drive. Walk or take a bus. You don't need a hammer to drive nails. Use a rock instead. Although there is a famous story about a guy named Cain, that makes a strong argument for getting rid of rocks, too. No one needs a baseball bat. Those are only used for recreation, so it should be easy to get rid of those dangerous weapons, right? I'm sure we can get rid of those dangerous knives, too. Our ancestors didn't need them to survive, so I'm sure we can do without them to make the world a safer place.

This is why we have a rule that none of these things can be used for that thing about killing other people under threat of harm or death unless it was done under pretty specific circumstances.

You are statistically safer around a gun than you are around a ladder, but I'm guessing ladders aren't on your list of things to rid the world of for some reason.

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 7 points 11 months ago

I like how you ignore the fact you're statistically less safe if you own a gun.

No need to change the subject to ladders.

The point is whatever perceived safety you get from your human killing device is negated by having the device itself.

[-] stevecole90099@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

I didn't ignore it. It's just a dumb statement for someone to make. You are statistically less safe if you own a toaster. You are statistically less safe if you own a coffee table.

How many toes must be stubbed before we outlaw those tables and their dangerous and harmful legs! Think of the children!

You are statistically less safe from a lot of stuff, but we keep them around because they have an important use.

My gun isn't going to break into my house and kill me for the 10$ in my wallet, but my cracked up neighbors might. I'll take my chances with the gun.

[-] SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

What purpose do guns have other than violence? All the other things you mentioned are used for other things. Guns are for killing, and nothing else.

[-] stevecole90099@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Completely ignoring that a lot of guns are used for hunting and even more are used for sport (hey, just like a baseball bat). Guns are a deterrent and an equalizer. They increase a person ability to defend themselves and others from threats stronger or deadlier than they would otherwise be able to face or defend against.

I don't know who you are, but let's pretend you are a 4'10" 100lbs girl that lives in a small 6th floor apartment. What do you do to defend yourself from a 7' tall 280lbs man that just kicked in the door to your apartment? Do you grab a gun and try to put as many rounds as possible in his chest or do you just sit in the apartment and let him have his way with you until the police show up and then continue to stand outside because they think it might be too dangerous for them to actually help you? I mean, what if the man has an illegal gun? Imagine! A criminal with the audacity to have an item that you, a law-abiding citizen, are not allowed to have because they, as you put it, are only used for violence, something criminals are known to not take part in. 🙄

Guns are the best defense against someone or something that is trying to do you harm. That's the reason it's so high up on the Bill of Rights. Because life, liberty, and justice are only possible if you have the ability to stop someone from taking them from you. It's like our forefathers knew what life was like to come from a place where you were nothing more than a peasant and everything you had and were could be just taken away if the person with the shiny crown wished it or some back alley ripper would stab you dead for your pocket lint alone.

[-] SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah, because countries outside US are hellscapes. And everyone there is dying of illegal gun violence. No wait, US has one of the highest rate of death from gun violence. It's also one of the most unsafe countries in the western world. Makes you think...

Also, sports is a secondary usage for guns. They were developed for violence. Some people figured out that they're skilled at shooting. Hunting is a valid use, I'll give you that.

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[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Oh he didn’t ignore it, he gave you some enthusiastic whataboutism concerning ladders.

I am in fact incredibly careful around ladders, fwiw. And power tools. But those things have constructive applications, where the gun is by its nature destructive.

[-] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

No.

Signed, a serial immigrant

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[-] Maddie@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago

You guys are getting a culture?

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 3 points 11 months ago

i like the water-puddle analogy.

were just water filling whatever sized and shaped hole in which we are dumped.

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this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2023
241 points (100.0% liked)

Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. A showerthought should offer a unique perspective on an ordinary part of life.

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