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submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by Subject6051@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

Modified post. Read the edit at the buttom.

Now, call me crazy, I don't think so! I have been an addict and I know how it is to be an addict, but I don't think sugar is as addictive as cocaine. And I really am frustrated with people who say such things.

This notion that it's as addictive drives me crazy! I mean, imagine someone gullible who says, well, "I can control my addiction to ice cream, heck I can go without ice cream for months, if it's as addictive as cocaine, why not give cocaine a chance? It's not like it's gonna destroy me or something?" Yeah, I have once been this gullible (when I was younger) and I hate this.

I do crave sugar and I do occasionally (once per week and sometimes twice a month) buy sugary treats/lays packet (5 Indian Rupees, smallest one) to quench that craving, but I refuse to believe that it is as addictive as cocaine or any other drugs. PS: My last lays packet was 45 ago and I am fine, and this is the most addictive substance I have consumed.

I am pretty some people here have been addicted to cocaine (truly no judgement, I hope you are sober now), so what say you?

PS: If you haven't been addicted to anything drastic as drugs, you are still welcome to chip in.


edit: thank you all for adding greater context.

I realize now that when they talk about sugar, they are not just talking abt lays and ice creams, but sugar in general. I get the studies now. But media is doing a terrible job of reporting on studies.

Also, the media depiction of scientific studies is really the worst. I mean, they make claims which garbage and/or incomplete data or publish articles on studies which make more alarming claims. Also, maybe wait for a consensus before you publish anything, i.e., don't publish anything which isn't peer reviewed and replicated multiple times. Yes, your readers might miss out on the latest and greatest, but it isn't really helpful if the latest and greatest studies in science aren't peer reviewed and backed up well by data.

I feel like a headline "SUGAR IS AS ADDICTIVE AS COCAINE" can and will be life destroying if you don't give enough information. I feel like there should be an ethical responsibility to not sensationalize studies, maybe instead of "SUGAR IS AS ADDICTIVE AS COCAINE" give a headline like "Sugar and Addiction, what science says."

also, https://i.imgur.com/VrBgrjA.png ss of bing chat gpt answering the question.

some articles: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/25/is-sugar-really-as-addictive-as-cocaine-scientists-row-over-effect-on-body-and-brain

https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/experts-is-sugar-addictive-drug

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/cravings/202209/is-sugar-addictive

https://brainmd.com/blog/what-do-sugar-and-cocaine-have-in-common/

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[-] Poayjay@lemmy.world 86 points 2 years ago

I challenge anyone who says sugar isn’t addictive to go a week without. No sugar. No sugar substitutes like fructose. I’ve done it. It is awful.

I’ve also done hard drugs. Quitting those are awful too.

The difference is that I haven’t done drugs in decades but I still have a pack of Oreos on my counter.

[-] danhakimi@kbin.social 26 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

See, the impracticality here is not that I'd be jonesing for sugar, it's that almost all processed food and most natural food has a little sugar in it, and also that our bodies literally require some simple carbohydrates to operate. Best case, you go on a hard keto overnight, and yes, the first week is terrible, because keto is a stupid fucking diet that doctors don't recommend because it sucks.

Yes, if I eat nothing but beef and saltines for a week, I'm going to feel like shit. That's not an addiction issue.

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[-] blargerer@kbin.social 18 points 2 years ago

Going without a basic macro nutrient making you feel bad doesn't mean its addictive. You'd feel like shit if you tried to go without oxygen too. Your body doesn't need as much sugar as many consume, but it's more than nothing.

[-] danhakimi@kbin.social 8 points 2 years ago

Well, your body needs carbs. And theoretically, you could do a low-carb diet, even a keto diet, but... keto is fucking dumb.

So, yes, in practice, you're gonna want at least some sugar in your diet.

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[-] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 years ago

To that challenge I would specify "in anything". Sugar and equivalent is in almost all processed foods.

[-] Globulart@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago

Are you just talking about refined sugar or are you including natural sugar in that too?

Is it even possible to eat healthily for a week with no sugar?

I feel like if I'm allowed fruit it'd be pretty easy tbh.

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[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 36 points 2 years ago

The thing that really causes addiction isn't so much the physical dependence, but the psychological dependence.

Almost all drugs (including Cocaine) have only very short term withdrawal effects. If it was only physical dependence, all you'd have to do to break any substance addiction is to lock that person up for a few weeks, until the drugs are out of the system and that's that.

The long-term effects are purely psychological. Usually, your life is shit, you got some pretty heavy problems or you have other psychologial issues like depression. And you know that substance X will help you to feel good, even if only for a short time. So you take the substance again to forget and feel good.

Because of this, you can get severely addicted to stuff like gaming, smartphones, social media, shopping or gambling, even though there is no substance involved at all.

Remeber the high-profile study about a rat that was locked alone in an empty cage and the only things it had available to distract itself from it's misery where a bottle of regular water and one filled with cocaine water.

The rat used cocaine until it died of an overdose.

This experiment was repeated, but this time there was a whole rat family in a really nice cage with a lot of things to do. This time some of the rats did a bit of cocaine sometimes, but never in excess and no rat overdosed.

Sugar, together with the physical withdrawals (which do really exist), is really tough on the psychological side due to its extremely easy availability and omnipresence.

To get cocaine you need to find a dealer, spend a rather big amount of money and you are always aware that if you are caught, there are some very serious consequences.

To get sugar, you walk into the kitchen. Worst case, you go down to the next shop, spendless than an Euro on the substance and consume it completely legal without fear of any repercussions.

Or you wait until someone gifts you some sugar for birthday, Christmas, Easter, or any other holiday. Or just because they are nice.

This super easy availability means, there are hardly any barriers where you can say "Actually, I wanted to stop" and stop what you are doing.

[-] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 18 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Actually you can just decide "I want to stop" and then stop. Tell your friends you're cutting sugar and to stop buying you treats. Stop going to the shops for donuts. Stay away from McDonald's.

People literally do this all of the time.

It straight up is mostly personal choice and I am tired of people trying to claim it's not.

[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 20 points 2 years ago

Found the miracle healer!

You want to get out of addiction, just decide "I want to stop".

Do you offer the same solution for other issues as well?

Depression: "Just don't be sad"

Broken leg: "Just decide that it's not broken any more"

If you can give something up just like that, you weren't addicted to it. Please read my post again. There is a huge difference between "using a substance that can cause dependence" and "being addicted to said substance".

For that very reason there are people who enjoy some wine, rarely, in specific settings, and at the same time there are alcoholics who actually are addicted.

[-] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Thanks for proving my point by showing us you know exactly what it is you're doing when you shovel donuts in your mouth and then get angry you aren't ripped. Or do you think we don't know what you're thinking when you instantly react to any kind of pushback against any attempt to hold you accountable for your behavior?

You make the choice to be obese by practicing bad lifestyle choices and refusing to take responsibility for those choices. And you do it because you want to eat sweet, delicious treats. And you are angry because you can't accept the fact that you can't have it both ways: you can't eat donuts and be ripped at the same time, and you don't want to put the effort in to be healthy, you want it done for you so you can eat what you want without consequences.

But that's not how life works.

I say that as someone who is fat and eats donuts and drinks Cokes all the goddamn time. We do it because we want to, because we understand a large part of happiness in life comes from the food we eat and that has always been true, not because of society or any other externalities, but because that's how life is. We do it because we like donuts and Cokes. We do it because we want to.

But there's a price to pay for that. I'm as fat as a pile of pigshit rotting in the Texas sun on high noon on the summer solstice because of it. But I don't worry or have feelings about it, because I understand and fully accept the consequences of my actions as an adult, and more importantly, don't care about being ripped.

I am adult enough to be honest and make that choice and it's time for you to grow the fuck up and do the same.

Or choose to stop eating sugary treats and actually become ripped.

It's up to you how you're gonna live this life.

[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 16 points 2 years ago

You are projecting. I hate doughnuts. I do eat sugar but not excessively so. And I am not overweight. I also don't care about petty beauty ideals like "getting ripped". I am not 15 anymore.

Let me get this straight though: You say that you are "fat as a pile of pigshit", say that you eat donuts and drink cokes all the time and that you "could stop at any time, you just don't want to". That's 1:1 addiction speech.

You are addicted. Because being addicted means that you keep doing something even though you know it's really bad for you. Being addicted means, that you are not in control.

Saying "I could quit at any time, I just don't want to", while your body is rotting away, means not only can you not quit even if you wanted to, but that you have so totally given up on trying, that it has become part of your identity.

That's the exact same line you hear from old smokers with amputated legs and lung cancer.

[-] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Then you should not speak for those of us who actually are obese and for whom this discussion is relevant, should you?

Think before you open your mouth. I do it before I swallow down a Coke; you can do it before arrogantly presuming to speak for a situation that is not even yours.

[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You are the one who brought obesity up. I was talking about addictions from an empirical standpoint.

You then jumped in and called me obese and weak-minded.

I didn't even mention obesity or being overweight at all in my first post.

There are also a lot of other conditions you can get by consuming too much sugar, even if you aren't overweight. For example, you don't need to be overweight to get diabetes from consuming too much sugar.

And contrary to you I know that addiction is not a character weakness and it has nothing to do with being weak-minded. Addiction is a psychological problem same as depression. Shaming people for their addiction is incredibly counter-productive, because it often is the result of people being very unhappy with their current state. Shaming someone makes this problem worse and usually results in more severe addiction.

I've have experience with addiction and I worked a lot with people who are affected by addiction. I do know how it works, and shaming someone (even yourself) makes the addiction much harder to get rid off.

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[-] Subject6051@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

I am sorry buddy, I am not sure if that's true. Not true for most people at least.

[-] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It literally happens all the time. You can find videos of people losing hundreds of pounds through their own choices with a simple Youtube search.

You just don't want to admit you don't really care about losing weight, you just want to be fat without the consequences, and life doesn't work like that.

Just say you choose to be fat, you're happy being fat and you don't want to change. Just say that, and no one could really touch that. But don't sit there and try to lie to me.

[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 13 points 2 years ago

Yes, you can find videos of people who have not been addicted.

Please go and read up just a little bit about what addiction is. Apparently, being completely unaware about the concept does not stop you from commenting.

I don't understand either how you came up with the idea that I am addicted or overweight. I was just talking about the concept addiction and the difference between sugar addiction and other addictions.

You are making a fool of yourself.

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[-] Subject6051@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago

nice comment, thank you!

[-] CapeWearingAeroplane@sopuli.xyz 28 points 2 years ago

I want to respond to your edit:

wait for consensus before you publish, don't publish anything that isn't peer reviewed and replicated multiple times.

You need to understand that publishing is the way scientists communicate among each other. Of course, all reputable journals conduct peer review before publishing, but peer review is just that: Review. The peer review process is meant to uncover obviously bad, or poorly communicated, research.

Replication happens when other scientists read the paper and decide to replicate. In fact, by far most replication is likely never published, because it is done as a part of model/rig verification and testing. For example: If I implement a model or build an experimental rig and want to make sure I did it right, I'll go replicate some work to test it. If I successfully replicate I'm probably not going to spend time publishing that, because I built the rig/implemented to model to do my own research. If I'm unable to replicate, I'll first assume something is wrong with my rig/implementation. If I can rule that out (maybe by replicating something else) I might publish the new results on the stuff I couldn't replicate.

Consensus is built when a lot of publications agree on something, to the point where, if you aren't able to replicate it, you can feel quite positive it's because you're doing something wrong.

Basically: The idea of waiting for consensus before publishing can't work, because consensus is formed by a bunch of people publishing. Once solid consensus is established, you'll have a hard time getting a journal to accept an article further confirming the consensus.

[-] EvilCartyen@feddit.dk 26 points 2 years ago

I've yet to see someone blowing people in a parking lot for caster sugar, so I can't see how it's as addictive as hard drugs.

[-] the_q@lemmy.world 51 points 2 years ago

Have you ever seen a TV show about a 600+ lbs woman? If cocaine was available in Walmart you wouldn't see people doing sexual favors for it.

[-] mobius_slip@beehaw.org 19 points 2 years ago

It's also significantly easier to get ahold of.

[-] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 17 points 2 years ago

you dont see huge bags of cocaine on grocery store shelves either.

Make sugar as rare as coke and you will see way worse shit than some simple street head.

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[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Price...

If pure sugar/corn syrup cost the same as cocaine, then some people probably would.

If cocaine was legal, it would be cheap as fuck and comparable. Hell, it was legal once and relatively cheap, people weren't giving blowies for it back then. But it was still just as addictive

[-] 1bluepixel@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

I've seen people with diabetes unable to quit sugar even though it's killing them, and THAT sounds like hard drugs to me.

[-] doublejay1999@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

You can buy a pound of castor sugar in any store. Plus it’s about $19,000 cheaper.

[-] funbreaker 23 points 2 years ago

I think when people make those headlines they forget that sugar is essential to the human body. It's a nutrient. As far as I know you don't get a deficiency disorder if you don't use cocaine ever.

The problem is with the way our society is structured now: it's hard to not rely on processed foods with tons of sugar and salt because most people don't feel like they'd ever have to the time to prepare a healthy meal.

[-] KinNectar@kbin.run 5 points 2 years ago

@funbreaker

Refined sucrose is not an essential nutrient, carbohydrates may be though even that is disputed these days the body refines glucose from any number of complex carbohydrates and even non-carb sources. In a natural environment sucrose would be consumed seasonally at a relatively low percentage of total calories when fruits were available, for much of the year sucrose would make up a very low percentage of calories consumed.

[-] Peaty@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago

Who disputes the need for some carbohydrates? Our brains run on carbs.

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[-] Pinklink@lemm.ee 23 points 2 years ago

People have left some great comments here so to add: when the body gets something it needs nutrition-wise, it releases dopamine. We know this, that’s why we enjoy eating (pretty good biological functioning). However, there is diminishing returns on most things. The first steak you eat: delicious. Hell the first bite is the best. Every next bite, every consecutive steak, you get less and less dopamine release because your body recognizes it doesn’t need that nutrient as much. Drugs however (disregarding tolerance and dopamine fatigue because those work through different mechanisms) do not do this. There is no evening out or plateau on dopamine release for cocaine for instance. Sugar works the same way. No slowing or plateau. So in a very real and bio mechanical way, sugar is very analogous to drugs.

[-] serpentofnumbers@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 years ago

I was able to quit cocaine, cigarettes, and alcohol and of those 3, cigarettes was the hardest to quit, with alcohol being a close second. I don't want to get into a discussion about the roles of behavioral addiction vs. chemical addiction when trying to quit something, but sugar has been just as difficult as alcohol and nicotine, if not more so. It doesn't help that it is seemingly everywhere and included in all the food. It's not as easy as "I'll just stop having ice cream", of course anyone can do that. If you start paying attention to all the foods sugar is added too and try to avoid those foods, you really have to completely rethink your whole approach to food (where to buy, the role it plays in your life, i.e. why you eat) and spend a lot more energy trying to find "healthy" foods.

[-] Fermion@mander.xyz 12 points 2 years ago

Avoiding gluten, dairy, or sugar really requires getting proficient at preparing all your meals from scratch. It's a good skillset to develop, but there's major hurdles. What are the chances that every single day you're going to have the time and energy to cook 2 meals from raw ingredients instead of grabbing a box/freezer meal or takeout? It's not a pure question of whether someone has the willpower to say no to a craving, they have to have the discipline to plan and prepare meals before they are hungry.

Absolute adherence to dietary restrictions is very difficult even when addiction isn't a major component.

[-] squaresinger@feddit.de 6 points 2 years ago

Add to it: they need to have the money too. Getting a cheap frozen Pizza is by far cheaper than to get all the components fresh and preparing everything yourself.

I recently tried making a few of the simple and cheap foods you can easily buy ready-made.

Do you know how much time and money goes into making a simple Döner Kebab if you don't have industrial kitchen equipment?

Or sausages?

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[-] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It depends on the person. For me, not really. I get mild cravings but they're easy to overcome.

What really helps is having something sweet that has no added sugars, like fruit or natural sweeteners like stevia or monk fruit or some-such. That way you can have the taste of sweet without all of the baggage.

I am pretty sure it's the taste of sweet that's addictive and not the actual sugar.

To answer your question, no, it is not and never will be as addictive as hard drugs.

[-] moody@lemmings.world 7 points 2 years ago

no added sugars, like fruit

An average apple, which is a fairly mild fruit, has 20 to 25 grams of sugar. There may be none added but it's still a ton of sugar. Try weighing out 25 grams of sugar to see what that looks like.

We also bred fruit to be sweeter than they were naturally, so there's that as well.

[-] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It's not the same kind of sugar as table sugar so your comparison is disingenuous, as is the whole debate.

When we talk about sugar in the context of food addiction or weight management, we mean sucrose, as in table sugar. Not the fructose in fruit.

You can quibble about the semantics of it if you want to, but those definitions are set in stone and nothing you're going to say will change that.

Now stop arguing in bad faith and let the rest of us speak our minds.

Also apples have 8 grams of sugars in them on average, not 25, now let's watch you prove my point that you're just here to argue and not to meaningfully talk about sugar addiction by arguing about apples more.

[-] shiveyarbles@beehaw.org 11 points 2 years ago

I'm addicted to air. At some point I'll kick the addiction.

[-] Emperor@feddit.uk 10 points 2 years ago

When I gave up drinking I developed an overwhelming craving for sugar because it, apparently, hits the same dopamine buttons. I, ultimately, found giving up booze easier than sugar because it's not socially acceptable to give those in recovery a bottle of wine as a present but people don't think twice about giving you some chocolate. I've had to be explicit about this now.

In some ways the ease of access and social accessibility are key - I had a chat with a couple of former heroin addicts about addiction and they found stopping smoking harder. You can quite the heroin lifestyle but (back before the smoking ban and the rise of vaping) it was very easy to have a few drinks, accept the offer of a cigarette and before you know it, you are working through a pack of 20.

Also, never underestimate Big Sugar, they will use all the dirty tricks Big Tobacco used to avoid bans in smoking, with similar disastrous consequences for our health.

[-] 520@kbin.social 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Not only is it hard to kick the habit, it's incredibly hard just to avoid. For cocaine, in order to get a hit, you gotta call a dealer. For sugar, it's in so many foods that it's seriously hard to go sugar free, even if you never ate sugar before in your life.

[-] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast did a segment on this recently, looked at a bunch of different studies and came to the conclusion that the scientific consensus is all over the place on the actual adictiveness of sugar and of processed foods in general, but that there are definitely some affects going on.

[-] taanegl@beehaw.org 6 points 2 years ago

Let me put it like this. I'm 3 months without alcohol, cannabis and now I'm cutting down social media... he said on social media. But boy, I needs my ice tea. I walk passed chocolate isles salivating. When I was younger I could empty 2x 1.5L bottles of soda in one day.

Yeah, impulse issues I got, but sugar has always been hard to get away from. Refined sugars should have an 18 year old age rating. No joke.

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[-] raptir@lemdro.id 6 points 2 years ago

I'll start with saying I have pretty mediocre willpower.

I can definitely understand saying you're "addicted" to sugar. I find it really hard to resist going for sugary treats, and it takes a substantial effort to make better snack choices.

But I can put some honey in my yogurt in the morning and not go on a sugary bender, so I feel like it can't be as bad as hard drugs.

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago

There's a bit of social conditioning to it. If I put whiskey in my coffee every morning, people would be concerned, if I put a few pumps of syrup in I'm bougie. Sugar is a normalized addiction.

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[-] addmen@lemm.ee 4 points 2 years ago
[-] Subject6051@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

Don't you use my spell against me potter!

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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
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