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'I just find bombs, dead people... it's really scary' - British Palestinian girl in Gaza (www.bbc.co.uk)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works to c/world@lemmy.world
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[-] dangblingus@lemmy.world 107 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If nothing else, this terrible unnecessary war has shown the West's cognitive dissonance.

Hardcore right wing people generally hate Jewish people, unless the Jewish people are fighting Muslim people, then it's "Jewish people have the right to self-determination!"

People on the left generally do not hate any specific ethnic group, however, we have a long history of criticizing Israel for their apartheid. Being met with the furor of everyone else calling us anti-semites is nothing new, but never has it come so forcefully from so many people all at once.

Moderates in the center aren't speaking out at all for fear of being called anti-semitic, maintaining international relations with a nuclear power, and secretly hoping that this takes attention away from the climate crisis so we can keep going business as usual in favor of the ruling class.

More important than the cognitive dissonance though, is the fact that everyone in the West believes their opinion is the best and will solve everything.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 44 points 1 year ago

Yeah, after watching the siege of Mariupol and the destruction of civilian infrastructure by Putin, it's kinda hard to defend the same actions, whatever the provocation, by Bibi

[-] x86x87@lemmy.one 28 points 1 year ago

Anti-semitic my ass. I know jewish people that are openly open about their retarded leaders.

Jewish people out of all people should understand why genocide is not acceptable. A bunch of old power hungry people are responsible for hundreds of thousands of people being killed or displaced. That's what God wants, amiright?

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

If it was genocide, why warn the people and offer humanitarian aid in the south of Gaza? Why no attacks on the Westbank? Why did they wait until Hamas attacked (again)? Why were Palestinians part of the population in Israel?

Israel certainly doesn't respect the border to Palestinian land, but to call it genocide sounds a lot like a propaganda tool. Especially when it comes from people who ignore that Palestinians and especially the Hamas and other extremist groups in Palestine declared they want a genocide on all Jews. And this even predates the separation.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

You are also called and Islamophobe if you aren't taking a stand against all of Israel in this.

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[-] porkins@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago

That’s like going to Camden for vacation and being surprised Picachu when you get mugged.

[-] x86x87@lemmy.one 14 points 1 year ago

How the fuck can this happen? I mean seriously how can people justify these atrocities in the name of "pick your favourite god".

Feel very sad for this girl and for all civilians that want to just you know live their lives. And remember majority of Gaza is less than 18. Kids.

[-] MataVatnik@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

It's not a religious war, fyi

[-] Pretzilla@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

How so? Israel 'settles' there in what they call their holy land. Hamas yells Allah Akbar as they kill and take hostages. Are you trolling?

[-] complacent_jerboa@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No, it has almost nothing to do with religion. The only part of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis that actually tangibly relates to a religious dispute, is the contesting claims over Jerusalem (because it's holy to both Judaism and Islam).

Literally the entire rest of the conflict is based on competing nationalist claims.

Yes, even though Hamas is yelling "Allahu-akbar". Believe it or not, they're not fighting because of their religion, they're fighting because of their political goals (namely in Hamas' case AFAIK the destruction of Israel). They do also happen to be religious, but the primary conflict is a political one.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hamas's goals are both political and religious.

They're explicitly fighting to establish a Muslim theocracy, under sharia law.

It's not akin to something like the American revolution, where you had a number of religious people fighting to establish a secular country.

It's more like the Maccabean revolt against the Selucids, where the Jewish leaders were the priests, and ended with the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty where the high priest became king.

Would you really argue that the Maccabean revolt had nothing to do with religion?

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[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

They do not want to just destruct Israel, they want to kill all Jewish people and want a purely Muslim country. Anti-semitism in the area existed before Israel was created and is a reason why it was created in the first place.

It's just often ignored because Jews aren't a group that people sympathise with. There are also many more Muslim people and even hinting that you do not support everything Palestine does, as a Muslim or not, can make you a target for lots of hate. There are even people who will tell you that you "aren't a real Muslim" if you support a two-state-solution.

[-] Whattrees 16 points 1 year ago

Religion is the coat of paint put on top of an occupation that is actually the root cause here.

Both the Zionists and the Jihadists claim to be inspired by their religion, but the actual cause of the decades-long conflict has little to do with religion and much more to do with decades of occupation and oppression.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

It’s a race war if anything. Religion is used to fuel it. But Israel doesn’t care about its gods. It only cares about people within its tribe controlling its country. Eventually Israel will have to choose between being Jewish controlled and being democratic, even. Because demographics are trending against there being a Jewish majority forever. They will ditch democracy. I mean, they already have by deliberately disenfranchising millions of Arabs from it. An apartheid democracy isn’t a democracy, it’s an oligarchy. Anyway, no, it’s not about the Jewish god. If you think Judaism is a religion, straight up, you don’t understand it. The Arabs also cling to their religion because it’s the one thing no one can take away from them. It’s also very effective at controlling people.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Hamas is literally an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood.

Fatah is reasonably secular. But Hamas is fighting a literal jihad against Jews. To Hamas, this is very much a religious war to establish a Muslim theocracracy over all of Israel.

[-] Whattrees 3 points 1 year ago

You're still confusing the pretext with the actual reason. Hamas and the Zionists both say they are doing this for religious reasons, but the actual reasons are much more complex and almost entirely political and social. You're buying into the propaganda from both sides of you really think the root of this catastrophe is religion.

Hamas only exists because of the occupation and oppression caused by the state of Israel.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Hamas, as mentioned, is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood. The Muslim brotherhood still exists in Egypt, despite Egypt not oppressing Muslims. Hamas might not have split off into a separate organization, but they'd basically still exist without Israel.

More to the point, though, why Israel? Why did Jews want to establish a state in Israel? Are you really going to argue that had nothing to do with religion? The second intifada was literally caused by Ariel Sharon visiting the Al-Aqsa mosque. Clearly, that had nothing to do with religion either.

I'm not saying that the conflict is purely religious. It's a complex blend of religion and politics.

Arguing that religion has nothing to do with it is ridiculous.

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[-] x86x87@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

Holy land my ass. Where does it say it's okay to kill people in their holy texts? They literally have one commandment against murder (thou shall not kill. Anyone? Anyone?). Genocide much?

As far as Islam goes, murder is again a top sin. In the Qur'an. How can you justify killing people?

I do agree thought that this is about infighting in the region and religion is a pretext to justify atrocities.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They literally have one commandment against murder (thou shall not kill. Anyone? Anyone?). Genocide much?

It's better translated as "don't murder" than "don't kill" - it uses the Hebrew verb רצח which refers to immoral unlawful killings (i.e. murder), not killing in general.

In Judaism, for example, the rabbis ruled in the Babylonian Talmud that it's OK to kill someone who is actively trying to murder someone else.

As far as where in the Torah it says to kill people, there's a bunch of places. For example, here's one commandment from deuteronomy 21:

If a man has a wayward and rebellious son, who does not obey his father or his mother, and they chasten him, and [he still] does not listen to them, his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, and to the gate of his place. And they shall say to the elders of his city, "This son of ours is wayward and rebellious; he does not obey us; [he is] a glutton and a guzzler." And all the men of his city shall pelt him to death with stones, and he shall die. So shall you clear out the evil from among you, and all Israel will listen and fear.

Edit: As an aside, the rabbis weren't too keen on actually stoning kids, so they clarified the conditions to make it basically impossible to do.

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[-] MataVatnik@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

It's not motivated by religion, it's motivated by real estate, Israel does business and has Allied with other Islamic nations and organizations.

[-] merthyr1831@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

This isn't just religion, it's colonialism.

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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
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