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Unsubscribed from privacy@lemmy.ml due to authoritarian propaganda (lemmy.zip)

submitted 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) by Rose@lemmy.zip to c/privacy@lemmy.world

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Soon after I joined Lemmy a few years ago, I searched for communities based on my interests and subscribed to the ones with the highest numbers of users to ensure they are active. Sometimes I joined multiple, but then saw that some people post the same thing to more than one, cluttering my feed, so I left the smaller ones.

It's only after my community ban from !games@hexbear.net for disagreeing about Ukraine that I was told about MeanwhileOnGrad, learning exactly what "the tankie triad" means and why big Lemmy instances have defederated from those. Lemmy.ml, where the ML probably stands for Marxist-Leninist, seems to have been defederated by fewer, possibly because it's run by the creator of Lemmy, Dessalines. Nevertheless, there is evidence of Dessalines holding the same authoritarian communist views as the rest.

Recently, there were two posts on !privacy@lemmy.ml about Signal, but then in both cases, admin davel (who is known on MoG for seeing CIA's hand in running Ukraine, among other things) and Dessalines linked (1, 2, 3) the same article by Dessalines, which not only argues Signal could be a CIA honeypot (as if it matters when proper e2ee is used), but also manages to shoehorn China even into that, claiming its government "prefers autonomy". This sort of portrayal of totalitarianism as sovereignty is the reason I unsubscribed from the community. As it has been said by others, ML is not a neutral instance but a means of pushing authoritarian views onto unsuspecting users.

Edit: Made the post title clearer.

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[-] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 9 hours ago

Fwiw: signal is a honey pot, perhaps not by intent but by architecture.

Security postures are driven by capabilities not intentions.

Signal:

centralized
uses centralized push notifications
stores encryption keys in the cloud SVR

Thus a three letter agency has the capability of breaking signal, even if they don't intend to.

As a thought experiment imagine you run the intelligence service of a non-us ally country (nk, Iran, China, Russia, etc) - would you in good faith recommend using signal, as is, for your classified and sensitive government communications?

how to break signal

SVR stores master key backed by a trivial pin, but uses Intel sgx enclaves to prevent brute forcing... a TLA just gets Intel to sign new code for the sgx enclave that allows brute forcing, runs it against the cloud data extracts master keys, and ta da all communication revealed.

Signal allows people to store their master key using a random bip32 key, but even if you do this, none of your contacts will do this

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 102 points 6 days ago

Your life on the fediverse improves significantly if you just block the entire lemmy.ml and hexbear.net instances.

[-] Rose@lemmy.zip 37 points 6 days ago

Getting closer and closer to that! The reason I made this post to begin with is to do a PSA, because it took me months of being subscribed to games on Hexbear to notice it's not a leftist community as it presents itself, but authoritarian communist. So I can't be certain all of their users are in the know, but is it worth keeping the instances unblocked if the bad outweighs the possibility of good?

[-] jimmy90@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

no you're not missing out on anything

these servers were some of the first which is why they appear to have a lot of communities

all the communities have moved on or been replaced on other servers so these servers are now a tiny fraction (faction? hoho) of the fediverse, exactly for the reason you experienced

[-] prettybunnys@piefed.social 19 points 6 days ago

Much of the “left” communities here veer towards the auth right with a light “left rebranding”

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[-] W98BSoD@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 days ago

Down and done. Easy enough to do in Voyager in settings.

[-] MissesAutumnRains 15 points 6 days ago

I hear a lot of negative talk about those instances, but rarely any specifics. What's the deal with them?

[-] Sophocles@infosec.pub 37 points 6 days ago

In my own experience, it's less that they spew out politics and more that they are just so defensive and argumentative. A lot of good lemmy communities are based on discussion and sharing cool stuff, while the denizens of those instances and the like are more online to debate, nitpick, and criticize. Like there could be a post of a dog picture and their comment would be critisizing the owner or introducing some political argument that is distantly related. Like bro, just enjoy the dog picture

[-] Rose@lemmy.zip 18 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I think the behavior surrounding my games@hexbear ban is also indicative not just of their politics but also of their behavior in general. Its moderator reacting to my report of Holodomor denial by publicly saying the comment has been reported by me is highly unethical. Then following my post about the situation (linked in the OP), one of their users reposted that to Hexbear and there were people tagging me as they threw insults at me, which amounts to harassment, considering I've never left a comment in that thread. There were admins in the thread as well, but they only piled on despite their rules prohibiting harassment and insults.

Edit: Here's a link to some specific examples.

Edit 2: They're now brigading this thread and tagging me again from here.

[-] Madzielle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Hey I'm in there! hexbear was my first block. Just do it if you enjoy not having your language policed or just general arguing. I don't think I'm missing anything.

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[-] yesterday@lemmy.ca 12 points 6 days ago

This. I've seen a lot of obnoxious and/or argumentative comments from them, but one that stuck with me was when my first Lemmy instance had to close when Trump was inaugurated due to safety fears.

The first comment to the announcement post was a hexbear user saying something like "Yeah this is why capitalism doesn't work, America sucks and it needs to go down" -- which I do not disagree with, but the post was the admin sharing genuine fears and talking about the logistics of having to move to another state. The user didn't even say a "I'm sorry you have to close your instance because of this...", just straight up getting into politics when it wasn't the main point of the post.

(I will always miss you, possumpat.io; I hope the admin is safe and thriving!)

[-] teyrnon@sh.itjust.works 11 points 6 days ago

You touch on the problem with talking with them. You can agree on the problem, get into what can we do about it, they are no, you can't do anything except violently overthrow your government. Also fuck you and I hope you die, their attitude towards us. Some of them.

Yet if they talked that same talk in those worker paradises of China and Russia they would be committed to re-education camps and gulags.

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[-] teyrnon@sh.itjust.works 25 points 6 days ago

They are fake leftists working for fascists, and they will troll you if you argue with them, following you around on alt accounts with non tankie instances.

[-] Eldritch@piefed.world 16 points 6 days ago

Hypocrisy largely. Heavy micro management and over moderation by admins broadly. Thankfully most are self aware enough outside hexbear to not leave their echo chamber. There are a few sub's documenting it.

Should discussion touch on certain trigger topics, and should your view deviate from dogma. You will often find yourself banned, either temporarily or permanently, without much discussion. Do you think imperialism and invasion of another country is wrong? Such as the United States current invasion of Iran or past invasions of Afghanistan? Well, if you happen to feel the same way about the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan or modern day Russia's invasion of Ukraine. You would be classified as a mush-brained, imperialist turbo-lib.

Do you think genocide and cultural erasure such as what the United States and Canada did to First Nations people is wrong? Don't make a mistake of applying that unbiased to the plight of cultural minorities in China. Tibet, Hong Kong, and the Uhygers, all of course are glad to sacrifice their cultural and ethnic heritage. Under the penalty of imprisonment or death for glorious left unity with the party and President Xi. Any discussion of these groups dissatisfaction with it is CIA propaganda. And not well tolerated.

If you skirt around in only the most niche of communities with hyper-focused specific topics. Who have almost no capability ever touching or involving current events. You might avoid it. Otherwise you will run afoul of it at some point as many have.

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[-] Ghostie@lemmy.zip 11 points 5 days ago

So funny story, I initially joined Lemmy on the voyager app. By default they had hexbear.net blocked. I removed it because I didn’t know what that was or why it was there. Well I now know the preemptive favor they were doing for me and added them back to the block list. Thinking about adding ML to it too.

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[-] lemming@anarchist.nexus 13 points 6 days ago

Western propaganda bubble is warm and cozy, just close the window so you stop feeling cold nasty drafts.

[-] Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world 44 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

You're right.

Russian fed propaganda is sooo good.

/s just in case

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[-] socsa@piefed.social 40 points 6 days ago

Lmao, bro Dessalines is legitimately the most cringe person on the entire internet. He literally will not comment outside his own instance, because he cannot handle any form of internet where he doesn't have his magic "win argument" ban button.

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[-] 0_o7@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 5 days ago

I don't give their opinions on China, Russia, NK, Iran, Ukraine, any sort of credibility. I've been banned from some of their comms but they're on point for pointing out the crimes and hypocrisy of the west, and there's a lot of deliberate effort to minimize their reach.

Fuck em' for defending authoritarianism but without them it's all propaganda from mass mainstream media and whitewashing of the west.

tldr: Fuck tankies and wankies trying to whitewash their atrocities with concern trolling.

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

I really am not sure what you mean - at least on Lemmy. I don’t see pro-western propaganda. In fact everyone is highly critical and self aware of the vast majority of the West’s moves and motives. Even articles of the rare positive moves are met with skepticism and pessimism.

The problem is that the tankies automatically attack any post by someone being critical of any other non-western nations as being hypocritical. An argument by hypocrisy. Annoying as hell, a yapping ankle-biting tiny dog constantly interrupting the conversation with “But the West did/does (insert awful thing) too!” when 99.99% of the time we’re well aware of the West’s failings, and those failings don’t mean other’s can’t be pointed out.

[-] cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 days ago

Pro western propaganda is often not just about promoting western countries. It also includes lying about enemies of the west. Pro western media also has a disproportionate focus on the faults of its enemies. It totality that kind of bias suggests there is an imbalance between the harms caused by the west and other countries leaning in the west’s favor.

I think plenty of westerners can identify the lies western media tells about the west. Thats easy enough to do given westerners have first hand experience living in western countries. Unfortunately, even well intentioned westerners are much worse at identifying those other forms of propaganda. As such, they have a hard time understanding geopolitical conflict between western nationals and other countries.

Personaly, I find the “argument by hypocrisy” isn’t really what critics of the west are doing. Instead, bringing up the harms caused by the west is meant to undermine the credibility of a western source and/or criticize it for its lack of focus on harms caused by the west. If you avoid jumping to accusations of “whataboutism” and engage in good faith, I’m confident many of the people you claim are “tankies” will give you a much more nuanced critique of the countries you think they’re reflexively defending.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 4 points 4 days ago

Instead, bringing up the harms caused by the west is meant to undermine the credibility of a western source and/or criticize it for its lack of focus on harms caused by the west.

More broadly, the atomic unit of propaganda isn't lies, its emphasis. The way effective propaganda integrates facts into its story leads the reader to come up with a desired narrative almost on their own.

You can't really attack this type of propaganda with evidence, because true facts are being used to tell a lie, all you can do is provide a broader perspective to show how narrow and distorted the initial one was. This looks exactly like "whataboutism".

Something something parenti quote

spoiler

“In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests propagated anti communism amping the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War the anti communist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If Soviets refused to negotiate a point they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off guard. By opposing arms limitations they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armaments treaties it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full this ment the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions) this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system. If they didn’t go on strike it was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated failure of the economic system; and improvement in consumer goods only meant that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communist in the US played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African Americans, women, and others this was only a their guileful way of gathering support among disenfranchised groups and aging power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is an unfalsefiable orthodoxy so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the political spectrum.”

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[-] homes@piefed.world 25 points 6 days ago

I’ve had hexbear blocked for so long, I actually forgot about it. Wow, that place is nuts!

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[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Noooo "calling it "authoritarian" is meaningless"!!!

Stop "phrasemongering", it's "not fascism" when China pulls its shit! China also not guilty of Uyghur genocide, that's western propaganda you racist!

Smh. Tankie propaganda was making me mad, I'm actually glad I got banned off their subs for adamantly refusing to accept their lines of reasoning for their blatant, apologetic, wholly uncritical acceptance of china.

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[-] Ferrous@lemmy.ml 17 points 6 days ago

Meh, youre making this post itself from .world, which itself just last week had a massive struggle session as its most prolific mod was under fire for claiming the genocide in Palestine is unrelated to US politics. If that's not propaganda, I dont know what is. I dont know of any other instances that have the same censorship issues as .world.

[-] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 17 points 6 days ago

Classic, .ml that chooses whataboutism rather than seeing two things can be wrong at the same time

[-] Imaginary_Stand4909 11 points 5 days ago

For real. I can go "Hey does this piece of software/hardware have any connections to China and should I be concerned?" and someone will hop out and be like "BuT iT'S oKaY wHeN tHe uS gOvErNMeNt StAlKs YoU?!?!?!"

Like no dumbass, that's the reason I'm trying to move away from surveillance of any kind. Both countries can suck in major ways.

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[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 14 points 5 days ago

I did that years ago

Don't subscribe to anything Lemmyml if you want to keep your sanity

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[-] CovfefeKills@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

Once had a ml slag try to reason to me that political censorship is good lol

It was high in "but but the those people over there are bad why can't I be?" energy.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 7 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Censoring and repressing your political enemies is good actually. If Biden repressed Trump by throwing his ass in prison there's a good chance we wouldn't be at war with Iran and Cuba might not be facing famine while fewer people would be harmed by ICE back home.

This axiom here isn't "all political repression is good", it's "repression of political projects that are bad for the working class is good"

[-] pinto@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago

No you see, when .world platforms fascists it's good. Don't ask why, they'll remove you. It's "Tankie" to remove fascists advocating for political violence to queers.

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[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 16 points 6 days ago

I've gotten into it with tankies time and time again over Signal. They point to all this hypothetical nonsense repeatedly and then refuse to provide evidence. Signal, on the other hand, has proven that they either don't have this info or don't provide it over and over again through publicly-disclosed subpoenas, but the tankies continue to push this propaganda, which one can only reasonably conclude that they're bad-faith actors and just "haters" of all things American.

[-] Hamartia@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago

Signal's creation and running costs were largely financed by the US intelligence community. So they're right to be cautious.

It may seem like it's technically impossible to track usage but nothing is 100% safe as long as there are humans involved that can be bagged up and dropped off in some offshore torture site.

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[-] socsa@piefed.social 10 points 6 days ago

The actual reason they don't like signal is because China bans it and they need an excuse for why that isn't just transparently authoritarian bullshit so they have created this entire lore around it being a CIA honeypot.

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[-] Greg@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 6 days ago

Unfortunately I am considering creating lengthy black lists of trolls and irreversibly corrupted/poisoned instances. Still better than using a corporate operated political brainwashing platform.

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[-] pinto@lemmy.world 7 points 5 days ago

Yes hello, I would like to learn more about privacy.

But don’t tell me about threats to my privacy unless I already know about them.

I don’t want to change my mental model of the world, I already know everything important.

[-] Rose@lemmy.zip 8 points 5 days ago

Because praise for China is to improve privacy? Is that a religious thing?

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[-] solrize@lemmy.ml 12 points 6 days ago

Wtf, and E2EE and honeypot don't necessarily conflict. Especially since monitoring traffic to the centralized servers tells you who is talking to who. Knowing what they are saying to each other (which is all that encryption prevents) is often less important.

I doubt that Signal is literally a CIA honeypot but it does seem to have some conflicts of interest.

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[-] Ghostie@lemmy.zip 9 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

I got banned from their privacy instance for 3 days because of something that, imo, barely is justified by the rules they cited, while other people were being insufferably hostile. It may be one of the same posts you’re alluding to. Granted I let a troll bait me into getting frustrated (that’s on me). Mistermodal I believe the user name was. After that happened, I was seeing a lot of these same criticisms about ML on other communities. I paid more attention to how the people there conduct themselves, which coincides with your point. I’m still fairly new to the fediverse/lemmy entirely so I don’t quite know the lay of the land if they aren’t obvious in the name of the instance. I haven’t bothered going back because .world and other communities I frequent seem a little more normal, less unhinged, and less hypocritical.

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[-] toad@sh.itjust.works 5 points 5 days ago

Nobody cares ffs. One post out of 5 is whining about tankies.

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this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2026

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