It's not about the the end goal, it's about the way of achieving it. Anarchists and Marxists have praxis that often is mutually exclusive.
I quite like this summary from https://www.skeptic.ca/Anarchism_Introduction.htm because it points out a few key differences.
The basic tenet of anarchism is that hierarchical authority -- be it state, church, patriarchy or economic elite -- is not only unnecessary, but is inherently detrimental to the maximization of human potential. Anarchists generally believe that human beings are capable of managing their own affairs on the basis of creativity, cooperation, and mutual respect. It is believed that power is inherently corruptive, and that authorities are inevitably more concerned with self-perpetuation and increasing their own power than they are with doing what is best for their constituents. This is equally true in Totalitarian and Communist states as it is in Democracies. Anarchists generally maintain that ethics are a personal matter and by definition must be based on concern for others and the well being of society as a whole, rather than upon laws imposed by a secular or religious authority (including revered laws such as the U.S. Constitution). Not unlike existentialist philosophers such as Jean Paul Sartre, most anarchist philosophies hold that individuals are responsible for their own behavior, life goals and ultimate purposes in life. The anarchist needs no one to tell him what he ought to do and how to create a meaningful life. Paternalistic authorities foster a dehumanized mindset in which people expect elites to make decisions for them and meet their needs, rather than thinking and acting for themselves. When an authority arrogates to itself the right to overrule the most fundamental personal moral decisions, such as what is worth killing or dying for (as in military conscription or abortion), human freedom is immeasurably diminished.
Anarchists acknowledge the connection between various forms of oppression -- including sexism, racism, heterosexism, classism, and national chauvinism -- and recognize the futility of focusing opposition on one form of injustice while others continue to exist. Anarchists believe that the means one uses to transform the world must be in accord with the ends that one hopes to achieve. While anarchists disagree about strategies and tactics, including the need for formal organizations and the use of violent action to overthrow existing oppressive institutions and injustice, most agree that the focus must not be on merely destroying the current order, but on fashioning new, more humane and more rational alternatives to take its place.
While many anarchists value cooperation, communalism and collectivism, anarchists reject both the plutocracies of capitalist states based exclusively on greed and envy and the totalitarianism of the existing and recently fallen communist, or more accurately Marxist-Leninist, states. The rift between anarchists and Marxists developed as early as the 1870s as anarchists perceived that the Marxists were perpetuating authoritarianism under a different name. Marxist-leninists groups have traditionally emphasized the need for a vanguard party and the dictatorship of the proletariat, ideas which are fundamentally opposed to the anarchist focus on anti-authoritarianism and maximum individual freedom. Although orthodox Marxism predicts that the state will "wither away" with time, we have repeatedly seen in communist regimes a consolidation of state power and its attendant repression and insistence on conformity. The same oppressive authoritarianism has emerged in capitalist democracies.
I just re-read your question btw, and realized I kind of answered the wrong question here, because the quotes focus on the differences in the means rather than in the end goal. But it's still good context, because communism has so far never been able to move beyond the authoritarian stage, so you could reasonably argue that the actual end state of communism is an authoritarian state with a socialist economy, especially if they have to co-exist in competition and conflict with capitalist states. So the end goal of the state "withering away" is more or less impossible to achieve via communism while western hegemony exists.
This is pretty good to read even if it doesn't completely answer my question it helps a lot
You actually got me realizing that they're not exactly the same goal.
I'd normally say they are the same goal. If we're talking about marxist communism and anarcho-communism (I'd say by far the most popular flavor of anarchist ideology), the former seeks "a classless, stateless society" while the latter seeks "an end to all power hierarchy" and it's normally assumed that marxism's classless-stateless-society qualifies for the anarchist goal too because it's done away with two huge hierarchies: Class and state. But as any good anarchist can confirm for you, there are far more hierarchies than just class and state.
Perhaps marxists assume that class and state are the two threads that will in turn tug and undo all of society's other hierarchies. As an anarchist myself though... I certainly do not think that would happen. Hierarchy entrenches itself everywhere, and it would continue to do so after the end of states. The struggle would not be complete.
So to answer you question? I guess marxism seeks an end to two specific target hierarchies. Anarchism seeks and end to all of them. Perhaps they both seek and end to all of them, depending on the comrade you ask, but anarchism makes that explicit.
I think this is a bit of a misconception.
Marx would agree that state and class are not the only forms power and hierarchy take, but his stance is that unjustifiable hierarchy needs the state to enforce itself.
Marx conceptualized the 'stateless, classless' society in much the same way anarchists do, but the traditions largely imagine the path to it very differently. Ultimately anarchists still see utility in civic structures and participation, which are still expressions of 'power 'and 'hierarchy', but are organized around "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" just as Marx imagined.
his stance is that unjustifiable hierarchy needs the state to enforce itself
I guess I would disagree with Marx on this then, as I think even the mere differences between individuals can lead to power hierarchies if left socially unchecked. I feel that the true key to abolishing hierarchy lies in knowing and ongoing universal participation in that goal by all members of society, rather than just removing the two largest social burdens from society. Marx was of his time and was more an economist than anthropologist, but I bet if I sat down with him over a beer I could get him to see how power hierarchy can and does arise absent state and caste :P
anarchists still see utility in civic structures and participation
Yes but also about this, they utilize power of course, but not hierarchy as mentioned. The whole project is a wash if they do that. Anti-hierarchical mass organization models do exist, and are in use. Nested communes that deliberate through flexible consensus-discovery processes and enact cooperative legislation through upward synthesis rather than downward prescription. That institutions must be hierarchical is a myth that anarchism does well to dispel.
I guess I would disagree with Marx on this then, as I think even the mere differences between individuals can lead to power hierarchies if left socially unchecked
I think we'd need specific examples to come to an agreement, but frankly I can't think of a relationship like this that isn't voluntary. Maybe you mean something like patriarchal family relationships - but those types of structures can't really enforce themselves without class and state. Someone cant force their spouse to stay in their relationship if neither one can withhold the means of reproduction from the other
enact cooperative legislation through upward synthesis rather than downward prescription
This is what I mean: this is still a hierarchy, it's simply a consensual one. When one self-governed group then comes together with another to agree on collective organizing, that becomes a kind of hierarchy. Consent can be withdrawn at any time - and that's what makes it a more ethical structure than liberal democracy
I'm taller than you. I leave some important stuff up on a high shelf. You have to ask me for the stuff.
Simple as that, a power imbalance waiting to be exploited, entirely absent a state.
And oh yes gerontocracy absolutely can and does assert itself without a state. Unless you consider tribal society to be a state - Which neither Marx or I would.
And OK, I agree that if an organization implements voluntary, revokable hierarchy (Autonomy retained after) you've got yourself a non-power hierarchy. I just find that to be such a confusion of terms. "It's structure can be drawn as a tree" seems so different to me from "This structure will hypercharge humanity toward total annihilation" that I shy from thinking of the former as falling under the same definition as the latter and tend to not even call it that. It's like how elephants and shrews are closely related.
I'm taller than you. I leave some important stuff up on a high shelf. You have to ask me for the stuff
This is definitely not the type of hierarchy anarchism or marxism seek to dismantle. Natural formations of 'power' that come from biological differences arent the ones we're concerned with, but the larger structures built around them are. If you're taller than me and can reach things I cant, we can structure our organization so that either I can reach it wothout you (stairs) or so that I dont need whatever those things are (a job that doesnt require those things). What anarchism definitely isnt going to do is either make me taller or you shorter.
And oh yes gerontocracy absolutely can and does assert itself without a state
Same deal. Being older and less able is a natural 'hierarchy', but what concerns us isnt the handicaps that naturally arise but the structures we build around them. If we distribute food and resources according to ability but make no consideration for less-abled people, thats the problem we are solving for, not the eradication of handicaps entirely.
Maybe you know this and it'll sound like I'm being patronizing, but ultimately both anarchism and marxism seek to arrive at the same place of 'to each according to need, from each according to ability', and that will require structures that replace the things states do with more involved community organizations.
We are definitely in agreement. My example highlights to the potential exploitation of the height difference, not the height difference itself. I refer to natural differences in power specifically to refer to the hierarchical social structures that they have the potential coalesce, absent alternatives. You describe such alternatives in your two examples because anarchists are indeed concerned with abolishing even such "primitive" hierarchical outcomes.
Then I guess it bears repeating that marxism is also concerned with those outcomes.
Marx would agree
He would also not call himself a Marxist
Figured I'd answer as a Marxist-Leninist that used to be an anarchist. Marxists and anarchists have similar, but distinct visions of what future society will eventually look like:
Anarchism is primarily about communalization of production. Marxism is primary about collectivization of production.
When I say "communalization," I mean anarchists propose horizontalist, decentralized cells, similar to early humanity's cooperative production but with more interconnection and modern tech. When I say collectivization, I mean the unification of all of humanity into one system, where production and distribution is planned collectively to satisfy the needs of everyone as best as possible.
For anarchists, collectivized society still seems to retain the state, as some anarchists conflate administration with the state as it represents a hierarchy. For Marxists, this focus on communalism creates inter-cell class distinctions, as each cell only truly owns their own means of production, giving rise to class distinctions and thus states in the future.
For Marxists, socialism must have a state, a state can only wither with respect to how far along it has come in collectivizing production and therefore eliminating class. All states are authoritarian, but we cannot get rid of the state without erasing the foundations of the state: class society, and to do so we must collectivize production and distribution globally. Socialist states, where the working class wields its authority against capitalists and fascists, are the means by which this collectivization can actually happen, and are fully in-line with Marx's beliefs. Communism as a stateless, classless, moneyless society is only possible post-socialism.
Anarchists obviously disagree with this, and see the state more as independent of class society and thus itself must be abolished outright.
Hope that was okay to post here!
This was a good response. What about marxists that support council communism? I don't know much marx theory but I feel that council communism is different than a traditional state
Thanks! Council Communism is a bit fringe among Marxists, and really is differentiated most by having a particular desire for organization structure. Most oppose the existing socialist states for not having the structure they believe is best. There are also just genuine flaws with the way they percieve labor unions and councils, which is why there has never been a successful council communist revolution thus far.
If you want to read a bit more into the basics of Marxist-Leninist theory, I made an intro reading list. It might be helpful, just to get more familiar with terms, if you check out some of the earlier works. Don't worry, I'm not assigning homework, haha.
Tbh the only form of marxism at this point that feels legitimate is council communism. ML is just red fascism now
In what way? Marxism-Leninism is by far the largest branch of Marxism at this point, the most developed, and has seen the most success. How is it "fascist?"
The soviet union and north korea are the most obvious examples as both of them followed ML
Neither of them are/were fascist. Taking the soviet union, as an example, the working class siezed control of the semi-feudal Tsarist system, and proceded to implement strong improvements. Healthcare and education were made free to the highest level. Housing was limited to 3% of incomes, and tons of housing was built and modernized. Massive literacy programs were implemented so people could better connect with each other, turning literacy rates from the low 30s to 99.9%. Life expectancy went from the mid 30s to low 70s in record time. Democratization dramatically increased, giving people more of a direct input on economic planning. Public ownership became the basis of society, and wealth disparity fell dramatically while economic growth was very high.
Marxism-Leninism is Marxism adapted to the age of imperialism. Marx was mistaken in thinking revolution would come to the developed countries first. Instead, these countries adapted and exported their harshest conditions to the global south. This meant revolution came first and foremost to the global south, not the global north, which means you have less developed industry. This came with a whole slew of questions about how to organize, how to run society, etc.
I don't expect you to agree with me, but I certainly don't see how socialism can be considered "fascist." Fascism is capitalism in crisis, from the petite bourgeoisie facing proletarianization and instead ganging up on the proletariat and other social groups. Essentially, creating footsoldiers to weed out labor organizers, leftists of all stripes, etc. so that private property rights are upheld and small business owners aren't thrust into the ranks of the working class.
How was the gulag system not fascist? Along with it's heavy surveillance and censorship state?
Having prisons isn't fascism, nor is surveillance, nor is censorship. As I explained, fascism is intrinsically tied to private property rights, and affirms capitalism's existence by violent means.
If, by gulags, you mean the portion of them that employed forced labor, then the Spanish Anarchists in Catalonia were fascists too, as they also had forced labor camps. If you mean prisons in general, then the USSR was actually fairly progressive compared to contemporary prisons, with some allowing visitation, or even allowing the prisoners to leave on certain days. The forced labor aspect, and the GULAG administration entirely, was dissolved midway through the Soviet Union's existence to begin with when prison reform went through.
The USSR was not especially a surveillance state, not moreso than other countries at the time, and certainly less so than contemporary states, be they capitalist or socialist. Again, also not something that is tied to fascism.
As for censorship, the USSR did employ a good deal of censorship against anything deemed critical of socialism. The USSR spent its existence under constant siege, and as such there were insurrectionary elements that opposed the socialist system actively working against it. This also isn't fascism, even if you disagree with the extent to which they employed censorshio, but it's undeniable that in socialism the speech of capitalists, fascists, and other insurrectionary elements should be restricted so as to prevent bourgeois elements from taking power.
All in all, a good book on the subject directly comparing fascism and socialism in theory, origins, and practice is Dr. Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds (EPUB) (Audiobook) (Online).
Fascism is about power not private property. Not sure where you got that Spanish anarchists operated labor camps as I can't see any evidence for that online but even if that was true, a system can't be said not to be fascist because someone else did it. Having forced labor camps is fascist regardless. Also you say that they sought to repress those critical of socialism or communism, but it was usually used to repress basic forms of expression and those critical of the leaders.
I'm not sure where you're getting that idea of fascism. From Italy to Germany to the US Empire, fascism has always risen as a violent means by which the capitalist class maintains control. Notably, the small business owners, the "middle class," becomes at risk of becoming working class, and thus becomes its most dutiful footsoldiers. If you live in the US Empire, you can see this quite clearly with the MAGA crowd and their class character.
Labor camps were not a good thing, no, but they aren't fascism. As for the spanish anarchists, you can find information here, but as I understand records are a bit murky in that area in general.
No, censorship was not used against basic expression. George Lucas famously spoke about how he was jealous of the soviet filmmakers for having more freedom overall, as long as they didn't critique the government. Overall, the USSR was no utopia, but it was tremendously progressive in its time, and was by no means "fascist."
"Fascism is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation" this describes the USSR pretty well. The US is also bordering on fascism, but that has little to do with the USSR. Those weren't really labor camps so much as they were POW camps for fascist opponents. Also what's your opinion on north korea?
That doesn't describe the USSR well at all, though. That's a very surface-level analysis of fascism and the USSR. I can give good references as to why (in addition to the book I already linked), but I think we've gone far beyond the initial scope of the question, which is about the differences between Marxism and anarchism in end-goal, which is best described as the question of collectivization vs communalization of production and distribution. Similarly, I don't think discussing the DPRK would be very productive in this context either, this is an anarchist community and I've already said what I think is valuable in the discussion of how Marxists and anarchists disagree and agree on "end stages."
If you want to learn more about Marxist perspectives on the DPRK, you can ask over on Hexbear.net or Lemmy.ml, those will usually have far more people than just me.
ML is goo difficult for me to engage in because there's too much defense of stalin I find tbh. Maybe I'll check out hexbear though
Are you trying to gain a perspective on Marxism-Leninism, or debate it? I think you'll find more success by keeping a non-confrontational stance and an open-mind, even if you don't end up agreeing. That applies to Lemmy.ml and Hexbear, and I say that because views on both are similar.
Debate it, already got a decent idea about what it is
Hexbear bans sectarianism then, your best bet is Lemmy.ml if you want MLs to respond.
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