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submitted 1 week ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

Date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, with government using increasingly sophisticated tools to censor its discussion

There is no official death toll but activists believe hundreds, possibly thousands, were killed by China’s People’s Liberation Army in the streets around Tiananmen Square, Beijing’s central plaza, on 4 June 1989.

The date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, and the Chinese government employs extensive and increasingly sophisticated resources to censor any discussion or acknowledgment of it inside China. Internet censors scrub even the most obscure references to the date from online spaces, and activists in China are often put under increased surveillance or sent on enforced “holidays” away from Beijing.

New research from human rights workers has found that the sensitive date also sees heightened transnational repression of Chinese government critics overseas by the government and its proxies.

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[-] Krono@lemmy.today 156 points 1 week ago

As an American I think it's helpful to put this into some sort of perspective.

Things the US won't forget:

  • Tiananmen Square (thousands dead)

Things the US will forget:

  • Korean War (3mil civilian dead)

  • Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)

  • Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)

  • Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)

  • Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)

  • Violent overthrow of Nicaragua

  • Violent overthrow of Grenada

  • Violent overthrow of Panama

  • Violent overthrow of Libya

  • Coup d'etat of Guatemala

  • Coup d'etat of Iran

  • Failed Coup d'etat of Syria

  • Failed Coup d'etat of Indonesia

  • Many failed Coup d'etat attempts on Cuba

  • Coup d'etat of Congo

  • Coup d'etat of Laos

  • Coup d'etat of the Dominican Republic

  • Coup d'etat of Iraq

  • Coup d'etat of Brazil

  • Successful Coup d'etat of Indonesia (1 mil dead)

  • Coup d'etat of Chile

  • Multiple Coup d'etat of Bolivia

  • Coup d'etat of Haiti

  • Multiple Coup d'etat attempts on Venezuela

  • Coup d'etat of Palestine

  • Mass civilian casualties, destabilization of many governments, people subject to a lifetime of torture without a trial, all under the War on Terror

This list could be so much longer, but I gotta get to work.

[-] who@feddit.org 30 points 1 week ago
[-] kittenzrulz123 27 points 1 week ago

This makes perfect sense, it's one thing for Taiwanese and Chinese people to remember it but its absolute hypocrisy for the west to comment. Especially as they fund the genocide in Gaza and Western Liberals make excuses for it.

[-] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago

No, it doesn't. Only people who are full shit use and defend this fallacy. People who have principles call out shitty behaviors and actions whenever they see them, that's because principles are universal. If you selectively choose when to apply them, then you don't believe in them.

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[-] Brandonazz@lemmy.world 14 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It'd be a bit like if China and it's entire sphere once a year went crazy commemorating the Kent State or Haymarket Massacre. They wouldn't be wrong to say these are bad things, but it'd clearly be in service of some ulterior motive.

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[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago

Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair, and behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be appropriate in a given geopolitical neighborhood. Accusing an interlocutor of whataboutism can also in itself be manipulative and serve the motive of discrediting, as critical talking points can be used selectively and purposefully even as the starting point of the conversation (cf. agenda setting, framing, framing effect, priming, cherry picking). The deviation from them can then be branded as whataboutism

Wow. Fascinating. Thanks for the link.

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[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago

WHATABOUT.

Name a more iconic duo than tankies and misinformation.

[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago

That shit gets brought up all the fucking time, in their own threads. Notice how people don't bring up Tiananmen Square, Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uyghurs, or the many other atrocities the CCP has committed whenever an American atrocity gets mentioned.

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[-] Gsus4@mander.xyz 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Most of that looks right, but

Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)

Ok, this was Indonesia, with murican quiet assent, but still, don't give other countries a pass on these things to make them look clean.

Many of these also involved the local elites going to the US for help. e.g. The draft UN resolution for the no-fly zone in Lybia was produced by the Arab League and backed by the African Union, which pressured russia and China not to veto it.

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[-] samus12345@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 week ago

Allowing the government to be taken over by fascists makes any "remembering" of horrific events pretty meaningless anyway. In the context of government, not individuals.

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[-] taladar@sh.itjust.works 107 points 1 week ago

"Never forget" is great and all but from a German perspective it seems to not be enough. It is much more important to make sure the same or very similar things do not happen again, not by China and not by any other nation. Otherwise you end up like we did here in Germany where decades of "never forget" lead to very similar sentiments being expressed by a new major party but since things are slightly different (e.g. the "never forget" was always phrased to be about Jews, this is more about foreigners in general) people seem to allow themselves to ignore them.

[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 81 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

"Never again":

  • ❌ "We must never do what we did to the Jews in WW2 again".
  • ✅ "We can never allow what we did to the Jews in WW2 to happen again to anyone".
[-] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 80 points 1 week ago

US currently working on ways to top it.

[-] BmeBenji@lemm.ee 25 points 1 week ago

That’s exactly what I was thinking. I feel like we’re months away at most

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[-] unphazed@lemmy.world 40 points 1 week ago

Meanwhile Oklahoma telling kids the 2020 election was rigged under state law.

[-] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 30 points 1 week ago

Tankies and whataboutism, name a more iconic duo (pro tip: you can't)

[-] unphazed@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago

You say whataboutism, I say hypocrisy.

[-] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago

Whataboutism is literally the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy. It's a fallacy because the appeal is done in place of a proper argument that addresses the original issue. The very purpose of this fallacy is to distract from the original issue and to dismiss criticism without ever addressing it by bringing up something irrelevant to the topic at hand and accusing others of hypocrisy.

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[-] Timoruz@lemm.ee 40 points 1 week ago

Was genuinely thinking of walking in front of Trump’s military parade.

[-] Subdivide6857@midwest.social 39 points 1 week ago

The capitalism capital of the world probably shouldn’t be preaching about human rights.

[-] betterdeadthanreddit@lemmy.world 46 points 1 week ago

Boy, you sure did get 'em. No pointing out bad behavior unless your history is unblemished, I guess.

[-] grte@lemmy.ca 31 points 1 week ago

US history is a little more than unblemished, though. Hell, not even history. They are literally arming a genocidal state as we speak.

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Tankie bot says what now? Get lost.

[-] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 23 points 1 week ago

Every now and then I follow up and ask tankies what their actionable alternative is. They just never have one. Just making perfect the enemies of good. Tankies are deeply un-serious.

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[-] besmtt@lemmy.world 16 points 1 week ago

Whataboutism.

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[-] CatDogL0ver@lemmy.world 38 points 1 week ago

This is just my personal experience:

~I was talking to a few young Chinese. They were after born after the massacre happened.~

"Why are Hong Kong people are so full of themselves and rebellious? They think they are better? (Derogatory comments....", cheating among themselves, happily.

I couldn't help and interrupted, "Some young promising Hong Kong students were murdered, beaten and kidnapped under the mainland China. You can't blame them for not being defensive."

Immediately they resorted to their memorised response, "Do you have any resources to back up what you said? The official death count was zero."

Of course there was no "official" news resources. China suppresses the news media.

"It is the same as Tiananmen massacre. You won't find any "official resources " but everyone knows people were killed."

Another one retorted, "The official number is zero. What official resources you have to backup your claim?"

It was useless to talk anymore at that moment. I left. My encounter probably would be on their "report."

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[-] GoodOleAmerika@lemmy.world 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Let's not forget Faris Odeh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

A picture of Odeh standing alone in front of a tank, with a stone in his hand and arm bent back to throw it, was taken by a photojournalist from the Associated Press on 29 October 2000. Ten days later, on 8 November, Odeh was again throwing stones at Karni when he was shot in the neck by an Israeli soldier.

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[-] ScizorCipher@lemm.ee 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Not contesting there was a violent crackdown, but didn’t the video for this moment end with the tank just stopping the entire time, the briefcase guy climbing onto the tank, then getting shuffled away by fellow civilians?

Everyday we see way worse shit happening on the streets of the US. Somehow the crackdown back then on anti-communist academics is an enshrined moment, but people on our streets getting arrested, detained, or killed is just business as usual.

And we also act like our country doesn’t call academics “indoctrinated”, beat the living crap out of both students and academics, and doesn’t want to kill them. Amazing.

[-] Saleh@feddit.org 25 points 1 week ago

The were about 8000 people killed iirc. I once saw on reddit a link to a photo archive of the day and especially night. There were some very explicit photos. Like intestines falling out of opened bellies and bodies with half a head left.

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[-] untakenusername@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 week ago

downvotes are from tankies

[-] febra@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago

You could pick so many more things to criticize China for especially from its past, verifiable events, yet the west always picks Tiananmen Square, making sure to pick the image of the guy standing in front of the tank, but somehow always forgets to show the video of the guy climbing on top of the tank, asking soldiers to turn around to where the protesters are, and somehow forget mentioning that literally half the casualties were soldiers that were set ablaze. Even diplomatic cables at the time either leaked or declassified prove that.

[-] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago

The Tiananmen square massacre is a verified event. We literally have videos and pictures documenting the entire massacre. How much of an idiot do you have to be to believe low level Chinese propaganda about this being fake or a good thing?

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[-] Anonymaus@feddit.org 15 points 1 week ago

Whataboutism

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[-] Deflated0ne@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago

Love the propaganda around this. Its very dramatic and all. But here in the west its held up as some big thing. The rest of the video never gets played.

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[-] Jhex@lemmy.world 15 points 1 week ago

Maybe I'll take Taiwan's word on this one...

Whatever the US says, you just know it's posturing hypocritical bullshit

[-] chloroken@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 week ago

My favorite thing to do is to watch liberals read the (very western biased) Wikipedia article on this event. The moment when they realize how many soldiers were killed before the crackdown is always radicalizing for those with even a modicum of intellectual curiosity.

[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 54 points 1 week ago

This sounds like how conservatives rationalize the Kent State massacre by claiming that the protesters were throwing feces.

You're not radicalized. You just switched which authoritarian you swear fealty to.

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[-] NotJohnSmith@feddit.uk 20 points 1 week ago

I only see wiki reference 10 soldiers having died - is this the number you're referring to?

Do you think that's alot? In my head that's disproportionately few compared to the [disputed] 100s of civilians that the Chinese government declared dead

[-] arcterus 24 points 1 week ago

According to the linked page with PLA/PAP casualties, there were 15 verifiable deaths (PRC official number is 23). Half of them weren't directly caused by the protesters, and the other half occurred after troops first opened fire. Truly, I feel quite radicalized.

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[-] QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 week ago

According to the official numbers there were ten civilians killed for every state agent of oppression.

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[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago

Never forget when the CIA organised an armed color revolution which resulted into people shooting at the Chinese military. The clashes outsider of the square, not on it as the name suggests, resulted in a total of around 300 deaths.

Tiananmen has to be the dumbest propaganda pount because it is so incredibly easy to debunk for anyone who has basic access to a search machine. The CIA literally admitted they backed the riots.

The sheer hypocrisy of posting this while the American government is arming a live streamed genocide with over 60.000, likely more than 200.00p killed.

[-] Godric@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago

Yeah, everything bad is the CIA's fault! A one-party dictatorship would never violently suppress dissent, and anyone saying otherwise is a paid shill!

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this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2025
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