1622
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
The less you know, the less you know you don't know.
Except they don't even read their own book.
Religion: I don't know everything...but my god does!
But God puts thoughts in brain means I know everything!
Are you seriously trying to tell me that atheists don't claim to know everything? Come on...
This is about the perspective of science on knowledge. Are you seriously trying to tell me that all scientists are despicable know-it-alls?
I don't think that's the message
People who think Science and Religion are opposed to one another don't understand either one.
What is science? Observing how to world works and learning from that.
What is religion? Philosophy (Here how you should behave, and how to live a good life)
Science has no reason to argue with religion, because religion is not scientific. There is nothing that can be proven or disproven.
Religion has no reason to argue with science, because whatever religion believes about the origin of the world, science just seeks to better understand that world. Knowing how electrons move is not an affront to God.
Arguing Science vs Religion is like arguing Painting vs Music. Sure, they're both art but they are completely different and do not overlap. There are plenty of scientists who follow one religion or another.
Yah, that's not the problem, it's the fact that religion is designed to push itself where it isn't, and it claims to be able to solve not just the moral problems, but the logical and societal problems as well.
If religion was just fucking "philosophy" we would all be fine with it, there would be no conflict. Science isn't trying to invade people's homes and tell them what they can and cannot do as consenting adults. Science isn't trying to give people an excuse to be passive about injustice. Science doesn't condone slavery and hate and violence and organize mass numbers of people to adopt hateful views.
There is material HARM that comes from religious ideology because it's trying, and has BEEN trying to supplant logic and reason and the scientific process since science became a thing.
This is not a "two sides" issue and I strongly resent the framing as such. Religion is trying to drag the world down to a state of willful ignorance and subservience to magical-thinking as an entity, and science is just a word to describe a process for investigating the universe. They are not equivalent. Do better.
Edit: readers, do not pursue this, you can't "fix" this person, they're some kind of closet theist trying to pretend to be intellectual but they have no idea what they're doing and will lead you in intellectual circles for hours and hours.
Science isn't trying to invade people's homes and tell them what they can and cannot do as consenting adults. Science isn't trying to give people an excuse to be passive about injustice. Science doesn't condone slavery and hate and violence and organize mass numbers of people to adopt hateful views.
People have tried to use science to do all these things. Eugenics was used as an excuse to push horrific policies.
The problem with blaming "Religion" is you are excusing the people who are doing the horrible shit. Instead of blaming the person who is being a homophobic shitbag you blame religion, dismissing the agency of the individual and excusing their terrible behaviour because "religion make them do it." Don't fall for it. Don't let them hide behind religion and use it as an excuse. Blame the person for being a piece of shit and treat them accordingly as someone who has willfully chosen to do so.
There is material HARM that comes from religious ideology because it's trying, and has BEEN trying to supplant logic and reason and the scientific process since science became a thing.
And scientists have never done material harm by performing unethicall experiments citing "logic and reason" as an excuse... Clearly all Science must be bad then because some "scientists" are pieces of shit.
This is not a "two sides" issue and I strongly resent the framing as such
The meme in the OP is framing it as a "two sides" issue and that is what I am arguing against. I agree that this is not a "two sides" situation. This is a "two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other" situation.
They are not equivalent.
I have been explicitly saying that they are not the same at all. I used an analogy of Painting and Music which are not equivalent because they are two completely different things. My entire point is people shouldn't be comparing the two or conflating the two.
Using science to "argue" against religion makes as much sense as using religion to "argue" against science: none. They do not operate in the same spheres, they do not seek to answer the same questions. They do not share and of the same purposes or goals. People need to stop treating them like they have anything in common.
You are still trying to weigh these two ideas against each other like they are neck-and-neck in a race, and again, I am saying your dichotomy is bullshit, and you should feel bad.
If you think experiments with eugenics is anywhere comparable to the thousands of years of wars fought in the name of some God or another, or the constant and unending hate that religion is using right now to justify abusing children, if you think that people make some choice like "will I use science or religion to figure this out" if you think that they are anywhere close to the same thing, you are too dense to have this conversation.
You are scared of death, I get it. We all are. Religion offers comfort, but no evidence of anything other than people like to tell stories about things they're scared of.
I have been explicitly saying that they are not the same at all.
I didn't fucking say you're saying they're the same, I am saying you're fucking EQUATING them against each other, and you're doing it with a fervor, and if you say you're not, you're either lying or unaware of what you're doing. Again, go watch some actual atheist debates and understand that you're not treading new ground here, you're falling into the exact same mental fallacy that many so-called "religious intellectuals" get in. You don't need religion or God to have a better world, a better personal perspective of the universe or anything else.
Using science to “argue” against religion makes as much sense as using religion to “argue” against science: none.
Okay here is where the crux of your stupid argument is. What exactly do you think is happening? Do you think science is waging war on Christianity? Do you believe science is trying to "kill god"? Do you think people adopt science for the same reasons they adopt religion? Do you think that if "both sides just stopped fighting it would be better"? Because if you say yes to any of these questions, again, you are radically misinformed or your perspective is tainted by religion and you are not being honest with yourself.
Science is, and I say this fucking again, a system for finding truth. It's not designed to attack religion, it's not competing for anything, you can indeed have both spirituality and religion and science in your life without conflict. But that's not what Christians and theists broadly do, is it? They're the ones trying to burn textbooks and trying to get schools to teach creation. Science is not invading churches and forcing them to teach motherfucking geology.
They do not operate in the same spheres, they do not seek to answer the same questions. They do not share and of the same purposes or goals. People need to stop treating them like they have anything in common.
I'm glad you agree, now why are you doing it?
You are still trying to weigh these two ideas against each other like they are neck-and-neck in a race
I am not. How is repeatedly saying they have nothing to with each other treating them like they are in a neck-and-neck race? One is running down a track and the other is painting a picture. They have nothing to do with one another
if you think that people make some choice like "will I use science or religion to figure this out"
Again, if they have nothing to do with one another, why would I think "people make some choice like 'will I use science or religion to figure this out'" ? That makes as much a thinking people use some choice like "I will use math or art to figure this out." I have said repeatedly they are not the same and you keep arguing as if I have been claiming otherwise.
I am saying you're fucking EQUATING them against each other
No more than the meme is, and I am pointing out the pointlessness of doing so.
You don't need religion or God to have a better world
Never claimed you did.
What exactly do you think is happening?
I think people on the Internet who don't properly understand Science or Religion try to use one to argue against the other without realizing it makes no sense and is useless.
It's not designed to attack religion, it's not competing for anything, you can indeed have both spirituality and religion and science in your life without conflict.
That is exactly what I said, yes. I'm glad we agree.
But that's not what Christians and theists broadly do, is it?
If you think the majority of Christians and Theists are trying to burn books and force creationism is schools then you will be shocked when you find out how many Christians and Theists actually exist in the world. The majority of Americans are Theists. The fact that some sect is trying to force creationism in schools, and it's not there by default, would be evidence that that is not a broadly held opinion by thesists. Afterall, if the majority of people wanted it it wouldn't be that hard to implement.
now why are you doing it?
Where specifically did I do it?
I was raised devout and my parents wanted me to become a pastor, I know a little about religion and what it looks like out there. This is why I know the motivations of the Christian Right and the threat they pose to everyone on Earth. It's a dangerous fucking death-cult.
I said already what your error of framing was, how you have been using the weakest, most neutral language here because you're afraid of pushing away theists and think that being like "both sides don't understand each other" that you will make more progress to get people to get along.
Maybe you could get a bite in a Christian forum, but it's inappropriate in this community because most of us are not religious and see it for the threat it is. Religion is a threat to us all, it's a scourge, a cloud of locusts that consumes the world around it. We don't need to be told that the people who practice it are misguided and don't understand science. We need someone to tell THEM that, because we're the ones being attacked.
This is why I know the motivations of the Christian Right and the threat they pose to everyone on Earth. It's a dangerous fucking death-cult.
I agree, the Christian Right is fucking insane. So it's the Taliban. Note how we are now talking about specific groups instead of Religion as some monolithic entity (Something you were opposed to people doing to Science.) Also note that trying to use Science has never successfully convinced these groups to behave differently.
because you're afraid of pushing away theists and think that being like "both sides don't understand each other" that you will make more progress to get people to get along.
You are inferring a lot here. I'm not scared of pushing anyone away. I'm also not trying to get everyone to get along. I'm saying it's a waste of fucking time and makes no sense for either one.
Religion is a threat to us all
Do you see what happened there? You were talking about the Christian Right and the problems they cause, and then suddenly changed to the monolithic group of "Religion" as a whole again, as if the Christian Right was every religion and religious person in the world.
Religion has no reason to argue with science,
Well, that sounds good on paper. It would be nice if over the centuries, religion wouldn't have ceaselessly attacked and persecuted scientists. If religion was "only philosophy", there wouldn't be so many religious zealots not only denying but actively trying to ban the teaching of evolution at schools. Nope... religion is anti-science. It has to be, because science is the one thing that has gradually taken away religion's authority over the minds of people. Religion is a mind virus, science is the cure.
load more comments
(5 replies)
You don't need to tell us about this. Religion needs to learn this.
"you don't need to tell us not to be anti-religious because of Science, you need to tell people not to be anti-Science because of religion."
My dude, I'm telling both. Which group is more common in this comment section?
Which group is more common in this comment section?
Lemmy is a predominantly young, leftist or liberal community, religion is going to be a minority here in all regards. When you come in "both siding" religion broadly, you're asking a lot of people who already have discarded religion to accept some part of it without giving a good reason or argument why.
You don't need religion to come up with morality, philosophical ideas about nature or anything else religion claims to have the monopoly on. It's fine if people want to have belief for themselves about higher powers or spirituality, but again, that shouldn't even be placed on the same table as actual systems of reason and logic and material science.
When you come in "both siding" religion broadly
I am not "both siding", I am saying they have nothing to do with each other.
you're asking a lot of people who already have discarded religion to accept some part of it
Where did I do that? I simply said there is no point and no reason to try to use science to argue against religion. The fact that people seem to find that offensive makes me think there are a lot of people wasting their time trying to use science to argue against religion.
People who think Science and Religion are opposed to one another don’t understand either one.
This was your first paragraph, you are starting with the thesis that someone like me, who has defended truth from religious attacks for decades, that I simply "misunderstand" the people who are screaming that God doesn't want us to get vaccines or learn about cosmology.
Science is on the defense against a powerful, hateful, spiteful ideology that has been wearing us all down for millenia. Religion is fucking HOSTILE so no, you need to focus your statement against the actual antagonist here. This isn't a place to use this pathetic neutral language, we have active fucking book-burnings happening in the USA right now, as schools become defunded even more than they already are.
you need to focus your statement against the actual antagonist here.
Agreed. The USA is less religious now than it has ever been. If "Religion", as a monolithic group, was anti-science then book burnings would have been commonplace for its entire existence and vaccines never would have been allowed.
The fact that these are more common now while the USA is less religious would suggest the problem is not the monolithic group of "religion" but instead a specific group. To me it looks a lot more politically driven than it is religious, but I would not claim that "politics is anti-science".
To put it bluntly, Science wouldn't give any shits about religion if religion would stay in their lane.
While there's plenty of atheists who have taken up the charge of destroying religion as much as they possibly can, with limited success, Science has, to my knowledge, never tried to influence religious teachings. Religion, conversely, has tried to stop, slow or otherwise discredit, scientific research, and understanding.
It seems to me that if religion would stay in its lane, this problem wouldn't exist.
Science has, to my knowledge, never tried to influence religious teachings
The meme I was responding to seems to be specifically trying to use Science to discredit religion.
Religion, conversely, has tried to stop, slow or otherwise discredit, scientific research, and understanding.
And I argue strongly against any idiots trying to do that. However It's incredibly disingenuous to claim "Religion" as a whole does this. Many scientist are religious in some for or another, so it's not the concept of "Religion" that tries to discredit scientific research, it's specific groups using religion as an excuse. The AntiVax MAGA crowd aren't trying to stop vaccines for religious reasons, they're doing it for political reasons. Some of them might try to use religion as an excuse (despite their religious literature saying nothing that would oppose vaccines) because they do not actually understand either religion or science.
I understand your argument, and I recognize that you're discussing the current state of affairs on the current political and social landscape.
My statements, as a whole, are not specific to the current state of affairs. Religion and belief tried to deny that the earth revolves around the sun, as an example. Of course, there's hundreds of examples of this kind of interference. Darwin's evolution theory is another prime example. I won't go on or this will turn into an anti-religion rant.
The problems I'm pointing at are much broader in scope and longer in the timeline / deeper in history than what you seem to be discussing.
I'm only generalizing about "religion" rather than a specific group or religion, because it's happened so often and come from so many different sources that it's hard to not generalize as "religion" vs naming all the various belief systems that have hindered scientific progress and understanding.
Certainly religion, as a concept as a much more broad and lingering effect on our society, from state religions (mostly eliminated in developed nations), like the church of England, and other, similar religious organizations, where you were obligated to believe in that religion if you lived in that nation or state, to policy set by proxy, by religious groups or extremist believers. Things that oppose bodily autonomy, and equality... Among others. While these are relevant to our society, both historically, and presently, they are not necessarily blocking, refuting, denying, or otherwise trying to remove scientific knowledge and understanding. It's a sad state of affairs that we allow such things to have a significant impact on our society, but these things are not significantly impacting our ability to make scientific discovery and progress.
Speaking strictly of direct interference from religious organizations and belief, both now and especially historically, and the damage it has caused to scientific progress and discovery, is difficult to quantify. Needless to say, it has been a significant detriment to scientific progress.
I cannot think of any examples of Science, or any scientist, trying to influence what religion teaches, or what the followers of that religion believe. Science is happy to let entire swaths of people deny what they say and believe whatever the hell they want. Science and scientists will proceed with the information they have; nobody cares what you think your sky daddy has to say about it.
There will always be people using Science to denounce bad teachings from the church, but this is limited in scope, and generally on an individual basis; typically atheists who are anti-religion will use scientific truths to dissuade beliefs in general, not any specific teaching. Any/all scientific organizations have no comment on the matter.
You contradict yourself:
I cannot think of any examples of Science, or any scientist, trying to influence what religion teaches, or what the followers of that religion believe.
There will always be people using Science to denounce bad teachings from the church
The most charitable interpretation I can give you is that "scientists" aren't trying to use science to discredit the religion, "people" are.
So people who understand science aren't trying to use science to attack religion, people who don't understand science are, which was my original point. Just like it's people who don't understand science that try to use religion to attack it.
I didn't claim it doesn't happen from either science or religion. I claimed the people doing it don't understand and it's a pointless waste of time.
I recognize that you're discussing the current state of affairs on the current political and social landscape.
Yes. Historically speaking everything is terrible. There is a long history of Science doing terrible and unethical experiments. There is a long history of governments doing terrible things. There is a long history of immoral and cruel laws. The history of humanity is full of atrocities.
This does not mean Science, Politics, Law, and Humanity should be by default considered bad. People who used Religion to attack Science were dumb as fuck then and are dumb as fuck now.
Science is happy to let entire swaths of people deny what they say and believe whatever the hell they want. Science and scientists will proceed with the information they have; nobody cares what you think your sky daddy has to say about it.
So if science doesn't care (which I agree with by the way) then making memes that imply science cares is a waste of time. Not only that, by acting like science cares and has something to say about religion it implies that religion has something to say about science. Instead of treating them like they have nothing to do with each other, it invites more "Religion vs Science" BS.
Lol do you live in a cave or something, religious organizations used to straight up torture and kill scientists if they made any claims that were not in line with what the religion claimed, read up on what they did to the early astronomers who were figuring out that the sun and not earth is the center of or solar system, and that's just one instance, I can point to a million other atrocities that today's society views as barbaric done by organized religion. Religion has nothing to do with living a good life, it's about centralising power and control over the masses and making them obey your commands.
Lol do you live in a cave or something, ~~religious~~ Political organizations used to straight up torture and kill scientists if they made any claims that were not in line with what the ~~religion~~ politics claimed, read up on what they did to the early astronomers who were figuring out that the sun and not earth is the center of or solar system, and that's just one instance, I can point to a million other atrocities that today's society views as barbaric done by organized ~~religion~~ politics. ~~Religion~~ Politics has nothing to do with living a good life, it's about centralising power and control over the masses and making them obey your commands.
I guess all politics are bad and we would be better off if banned all politics.
People using religion as an excuse does not mean all religion is bad and that the people doing these things are not culpable for their actions. You are dismissing the people who chose to do these things and blaming Religion instead. Don't let them get away with that. Blame the person for being a piece of shit.
There are just as many scientist that are religious in some fashion as scientist that are not. If religion was antithetical to science you wouldn't have scientists with religious beliefs.
There are aeronautical engineers who think the world is flat. Human beings aren't rational creatures, so it's not surprising that there are scientists that are religious, but acting like it's some bad apples who give religion a bad name is also not correct. Might I remind you the vatican itself has helped hide multiple crimes committed by the clergy over the years, everything from shielding child raping priests by moving them around to burying the bones of the native American children that were kidnapped from their families and brutalized in church grounds. Point me to any country on the map that's a theocracy and I'll show you how they brutalize their population. I'm not against religion, but religion shouldn't be allowed to interfere in other people's lives, should not have any say in how a goverment runs and how laws get passed and should be forced to pay taxes like any other business. Religious people with power over others are a danger to society.
Point me to any country on the map ~~that's a theocracy~~ and I'll show you how they brutalize their population.
FTFY. Don't tell me it's "some bad apples", clearly all government's are bad.
religion shouldn't be allowed to interfere in other people's lives, should not have any say in how a goverment runs and how laws get passed and should be forced to pay taxes like any other business
I agree 100%. I don't know what you think you're arguing against because I never said otherwise.
Good points. Lemmy has a bit of an anti religion echo chamber.
Pointing out the extremes of one and cherrypicking the other. Both sides have done a lot of good and bad.
I like your view of religion as a spiritual guide for morality. Most people are too narrow minded when it comes to religion. They purley hate and focus on the byproducts of the zeitgeist, cultural norms from times past. Instead they should read between the lines and try to understand the actual message it's trying to convey.
Science isn't out there making rules for owning slaves. And so that line about philosophy is utter bs. Philosophy also doesn't lay out rules for owning slaves.
load more comments
(1 replies)
What is religion? Philosophy
I wish people just saw religion as a metaphor, but they really do believe there is a god and act accordingly even though there is no evidence of any gods existing.
This pokes at one of my biggest gripes with it, if there is a big guy with pearly gates upstairs, and doing good in life is a reward, does that mean you only do good things because your paid? It cheapens the entire philosophy and moral compass they proport to have.
On that topic. Religions does have philosophy, but it requires more effort than just showing up to what ever service you attend, I personally only know 3 religious people who have even read Aquinas (which is sad, because his work is a good read even if christiantiy aint your jam). For everything else religion is a crutch, its easier to scare kids into not steal things and acting with good-enough morals than it is to plonk a tomb of Plato or Confucius in front of them and tell them there will be a quiz on ethics at dinner.
load more comments
(1 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
Plenty of people claiming to be on the side of science think they know everything too.
Nobody likes to work with those people and they generally don’t do very well in their careers. Sometimes you get an exception but it’s pretty rare. Most technical people I’ve met are very curious people and in my experience, the most likely to actually update their views with more information.
Yeah I’m not so sure about this haha. I work in academia, and there is quite the abundance of closed mindedness and dogmatism.
Yeah no one seems interested in my perpetual motion machine.
I think that's just the comfortable position for humans. Questioning what you know to be true is hard, and the more fundamental the fact the more uncomfortable it is to doubt. Which is also why religion is so attractive.
I work in academia, and there is quite the abundance of closed mindedness and dogmatism
Are we talking about discrimination against young or foreign academics not getting grants and degrees because of bias about who should be the ones leading research and hesitancy to invest time, money and political capital into new tech, or are we talking about "They didn't want to read my paper about how I think the sun pooped out the Earth and why this is evidence for God"?
Seriously, that's a loaded claim, you need to provide some context and nuance there, I haven't met many actual scientific-minded people who are dogmatic, that is usually the exact accusation thrown out by theists who are butthurt that evolution exists and can't be disproven.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_science
Read this. I used to favour Popper, but I now quite like Kuhn. Kuhn is based.
My point is that the scientific endeavour according to Kuhn is not an inherently critical one(as it is with Popper, for example). Science is based on dogmas, positions and suppositions that are not questioned within a paradigm.
load more comments
(4 replies)
Edgy 14yo post
Look at your fucking username before you blabber about edgy 14 yr olds
I met people on both sides that had either of those attitudes.
The "I'm always right because I have a PHD" is not uncommon, even on fields not covered by their education.
At the same time, I've met many religious people (Muslims, Hindus, Christians) that for them religion was a private, personal aspect that helped them deal with their lives.
As a kind of a routine, something done time and time again enough to clear up their minds from stress and give them an anchor when lost.
I'm not religious, but I believe in freedom and the pursuit of happiness, and I support anyone as long as it doesn't interfere with other's.
load more comments
(7 replies)
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 29 Mar 2025
1622 points (100.0% liked)
memes
13939 readers
3010 users here now
Community rules
1. Be civil
No trolling, bigotry or other insulting / annoying behaviour
2. No politics
This is non-politics community. For political memes please go to !politicalmemes@lemmy.world
3. No recent reposts
Check for reposts when posting a meme, you can only repost after 1 month
4. No bots
No bots without the express approval of the mods or the admins
5. No Spam/Ads
No advertisements or spam. This is an instance rule and the only way to live.
A collection of some classic Lemmy memes for your enjoyment
Sister communities
- !tenforward@lemmy.world : Star Trek memes, chat and shitposts
- !lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world : Lemmy Shitposts, anything and everything goes.
- !linuxmemes@lemmy.world : Linux themed memes
- !comicstrips@lemmy.world : for those who love comic stories.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS