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[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 132 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If it were a "first-class citizen" there would be native Linux games and not rampant and intentional anti-cheat exclusions.

"First-class citizen" doesn't refer to the quality of the experience, but how it's treated in society. At this point it's mostly something that devs and publishers tolerate, and occasionally offer minor consideration on behalf of a single device.

If it were a “first-class citizen” there would be native Linux games

This was my thought exactly. Proton's emulation of a windows game doesn't count as "first class experience". It's second class at best, but still better than literally nothing at all.

[-] blackstrat@lemmy.fwgx.uk 24 points 1 year ago

Proton and Wine are not emulators. So while I take your point, I feel it's important to distinguish the difference here where emulators have a lot of negative connotations.

[-] CubitOom@infosec.pub 14 points 1 year ago

While I agree that proton on its own doesn't make gaming on Linux a "first class experience", it does sometimes perform better than the original native "first class" Windows OS that the game was originally intended to be played on. Which is just funny, but also shows all the work that has gone into proton.

Game devs need more Linux players before they make major industry wide changes, but proton makes those numbers have a chance of increasing by making the games playable on Linux.

Another reason why I wouldn't call gaming on Linux a "first class experience" yet is controller and input driver issues. Which can be worked around like if I open a game I bought on gog through steam and use the steam input methods but I shouldn't have to use steam to play a gog game with a controller.

[-] Wild_Mastic@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

In nobara i literally turned on bluetooth, connected my ps4 controller and started playing. No steam inputs.

[-] kurcatovium@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes, that first pragraph is (sadly?) my experience too. Almost every game that have native version was somehow worse than windows version with proton. Black mesa gave me all sorts of weird glitchy light effects, Pillars of Eternity only ran at 60 FPS and had half of the fonts unreadably blurry, the other game (forgot the name) lacked plenty of updates on linux, etc. And all these problems went away with proton. Is it sad? Yes. Do I care much? Not really as long as proton is hassle free.

[-] CubitOom@infosec.pub 1 points 1 year ago

Interesting, I haven't had that experience much myself. It might be a bad port to Linux?

I wonder if there is a launch option that you could set that would help? It might also depend on your GPU and drivers. But to your point, it's much less hassel to just tell steam to use proton and not have those issues.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 1 year ago

While I agree that proton on its own doesn't make gaming on Linux a "first class experience",

"First-class citizen" doesn't refer to the quality of the experience

[-] Deway@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Windows games running better with Wine than on Windows has been a thing for at least 20 years, Proton (which is a fork of Wine, people tend to forget) didn't invent anything.

[-] vividspecter@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's mainly DXVK and vkd3d-proton that enable this (projects associated with Valve and Proton). It was usually only native OGL games that performed better on old-school Wine; the wined3d translation layer has been hit and miss historically.

That's not to downplay the huge amount of work that has gone into Wine itself.

[-] vividspecter@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

It’s second class at best, but still better than literally nothing at all.

The native ports have frequently been terrible, both in performance and compatibility (missing graphical features etc). Proton is better than those ports, but worse than a native version using Vulkan and 100% of features supported correctly.

There are native Linux games, but mostly from AA and indie publishers. So by that mark, it has been a first-class citizen since mid-2010s, after Steam started officially supporting Linux.

That said, I think that goalpost is a bit too far away. I consider it "first-class support" if major AAA devs offering official technical support to Linux users is more common than not, regardless of whether it's packaged w/ Proton or directly as a Linux native binary. How they distribute it is up to them, as long as they actually support Linux users. We're not there yet, but we're a lot closer than we were even just 5 years ago.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 1 year ago

There are native Linux games

They exist. How many of them do you see on the front page of the Steam store? Almost never. Games that people actually play are very rarely Linux native. If they were, Proton never would have been created.

[-] Womble@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

All of the Paradox games, Civ, Pillars of Eternity, DoTA, Counterstrike. its a small fraction sure, but its not like no big games have native linux versions.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 2 points 1 year ago
[-] Womble@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

of the current top 30 on most played on steam 7 have a native Linux version, just shy of 1/4. I'd hardly call that almost never.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 1 points 1 year ago

I didn't say anything about "most played".

[-] Womble@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Games that people actually play are very rarely Linux native.

Was your exact quote, I think showing 1/4 of the most played games on Steam are linux native shows that isnt the case.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Games people actually play

Games that are played most often

Do you see the difference there?

You're talking about seven games. Seven. 7. Do you know how many games there are?

Most indie games seem to have native Linux support, so I guess whenever one of those hits the front page. For example, Slay the Spire and Darkest Dungeon have spent some time there, and they have native Linux support. There are plenty more examples as well.

[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

And of these native ports, you'll get better performance using proton because the port was done by a third party studio and ended support after a year.

I'm refering to Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel btw.

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[-] vividspecter@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

If they were, Proton never would have been created.

Even if most games were native there would be still be a case for Proton for older games, and to approach 100% compatibility.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 1 points 1 year ago

Sure, but it wouldn't have been worth the effort. Guarantee Valve has dumped a looooot of money into it's development.

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 year ago

It feels like the trend is changing in that direction, but most games weren't released in the past year or so, and even those were designed and built not thinking Linux would be where it is now. We'll have to see how it evolves.

I agree that a lot of large publishers seem to be actively harming the experience to ensure Linux users can't use their service, for whatever reason. That needs to change. They need to be punished for this, ideally by helping people switch to Linux and making them realize they don't need those games if they don't care about them as a user.

[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 16 points 1 year ago

Is there a tldr here?

Upgraded my pc over the last week, was very pleasantly surpised to learn my AMD gpu has it's drivers bundled with the kernel 😊

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago

Yeah, on top of not having to deal with applications checking for updates when they're launched, and then manually installing them, not having to deal with drivers is amazing. Windows users talk about how easy the experience is with Windows, but they're just used to how shitty it is and haven't seen the alternative. I just occasionally update everything in my system when I think about it and it's good to go. No being forced to update and restart. No hassle. Just simple and quick and everything is up-to-date.

[-] ConstantPain@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So, my Nvidia card will work out of the box with secure boot on and my daughter can play Xbox Gaming Pass or Gaming Cloud now?

Edit: yes, blame me, the user, for having realistic expectations of what I want working on my PC...

[-] Quazatron@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

The awesome people who volunteer their time to bring you the free operating system that you're whining about would love to support your card, and in fact do so despite the best efforts of the vendor to be a complete ass and ignore their Linux customers.

[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I think they are criticizing the headline more than Linux its self.

[-] Quazatron@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

You're probably right, I get triggered when the blame is assigned to the wrong people.

It's Nvidia's fault for not caring about their customers, and it's the customers fault for buying their products and not shouting at the vendor for poor user support.

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 12 points 1 year ago

GamePass on the cloud works, but MS has made a choice to not let it work on Linux. This is not an issue with Linux. It's an issue with MS and Windows. They choose to distribute the games using a proprietary encryption method, which harms the user's experience and makes it only work on Windows. You can't mod your games (unless the explicitly allow it and let you decrypt it) because "fuck you, this is ours." Fuck them. If they want my money they can make a better product that works where I want to be. You should hold yourself to that level too, not lick their boot and thank them for the privilege.

[-] TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

I almost want to make the meme with "Microsoft locks down their software to be unusable on Linux" "Why would Linux do this"

Yes to everything up to Xbox Game Pass (and whatever Gaming Cloud is), just pick a mainstream distro and you should be good, as long as your daughter isn't set on playing specific games w/ anti-cheat.

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[-] Psythik@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Okay? What the fuck does that mean?

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

Watch the video, smart alex.

[-] Psythik@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

The guy is wearing a fucking fedora in the thumbnail; his opinion is irrelevant.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

That is clearly a red hat.

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

What an arbitrary thing to judge someone by.

[-] Psythik@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Not arbitrary; I'm sorry but I'm not interested in hearing opinions from neckbeards and/or incels.

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago

Wearing a hat doesn’t make anyone an incel, the attitude does.

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this post was submitted on 02 Jan 2025
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