i am not ordering cars from them anymore /s
yeah me too. I was like, about to and stuff.
Well then, I'm going to order twice as many cars from them next year as I did last year.
Plenty of brands stopped offering manual variants of plenty of models. IIRC BMW practically begged people to stop asking for manual variants, saying it just does not make any sense to mess with the supply chain and the production line and the car itself just to put an objectively inferior transmission inside it.
On the contrary, it makes no sense to put automatic transmissions into sports cars.
On public roads, you're not gonna be able to drive them as fast as they can go anyway.
An automatic transmission may offer better performance, but you have 5x as much of that as you can use already.
What a manual transmission offers is the feeling of being in full control.
It's simply more fun and engaging to drive.
But apparently, cars aren't made to offer the best experience possible anymore.
Auto transmissions are now cheaper and anyone can drive them, so the potential market is bigger. And that's what matters, even up to the Lamborghini price bracket.
What a manual transmission offers is the feeling of being in full control.
Being able to maintain a gear selection and being able to directly control the clutch are huge advantages in specific conditions like extreme weather or some off road terrain. A surprise shift during a curve in icy conditions makes me nervous every time for example.
If an automatic system allowed for direct control of gears and the ability to disengage and reingage the clutch on demand it would cover those scenarios.
The company car I get to use has an automatic transmission that drives me mad.
Its shift points are always right above the speeds I usually drive at.
It shifts into third at 40 km/h which is too fast for a speed limit of 30.
It shifts into fourth at 60 which is too fast for a speed limit of 50.
And it shifts into fifth at 80 which is too fast for a speed limit of 70.
So you're constantly driving with too high rpm's, burning more fuel and making more noise than you'd have to.
It has a "manual mode" where you can shift by moving the stick up or down. But it doesn't actually do anything. If you shift at a different point than the automatic would, you just get a "shift denied" message on the dash, even though the rpm's wouldn't even get close to being too low.
And when you push the gas pedal just a bit more than half, it shifts down and the engine roars, but it doesn't actually achieve much cause the car doesn't have much power.
Internal combustion engines are most fuel-efficient at low rpm's (<1500) and full throttle, and that's impossible to do with this transmission. So it only gets 34mpg (7l/100km), and it's a Diesel hatchback. My old manual car also had a 34mpg rating, but the way I drive I could get 47 (5l/100km), and it had a gasoline engine.
My current car with a stick is able to squeeze 34 MPG highway, 3 over the rated 31. However, the CVT version is rated for 38 highway in the same conditions.
The systems used in these cars are dual clutch - they always offer (or only have) a manual shift mode, which will hold the gear you're in until you say when, and only down/upshift if you bang the rev limiter or try to go below minimum RPM.
EVs don't do any shifting and usually have a low center of gravity, even better for suspect road conditions!
What is "best experience" though? It's such a subjective thing. For you it might be pushing a lever back and forth. For every one person like you, I bet there are hundreds who'd rather leave that menial task to the car. Manual transmission can quickly stop being "fun and engaging" and become a chore, especially if you drive through traffic regularly.
I, or rather my left leg, personally do not consider manual transmission as a good experience at all. I also think paying much less for fuel is also a very good experience for my wallet. Though of course I don't drive a Lamborghini or even a nice M4, so there's that.
They quit offering sticks because they use dual clutch transmissions, which do the job better.
What job, though?
When I'm driving a fun car, I want to actually drive it, not hold the steering wheel and push paddle-shaped buttons that ask a computer to shift for me (if it feels like it).
Because the dual clutch is a lot faster at shifting than the standard manual, and you can put more gears on the dual clutch since you no longer have to deal with a growingly large shift pattern on a stick.
Top tip for dual clutch: You pull the shift lever slightly short of when you want to upshift. Your car will still accelerate while the computer sets up the shift (it has to do or verify the next gear is ready before pulling the trigger on the clutch switchover), and when it shifts, it is so fast the engine even sputters a couple times from the RPMs dropping so fast the timing is momentarily off on one or two ignitions.
All that happens in the span of time it takes for you to kick the clutch to the floor and reach for the stick in a standard manual.
Source: I've daily'ed sticks (including my current, and hopefully final gas powered car) and a dual clutch (my previous car). I still prefer the DCT over the stick.
We're not on the same page here.
Yes, an automatic transmission with a dual clutch and paddle shifters obviously shifts much faster, has more gears, and lets you accelerate faster.
But my point is, even 200 horsepower in a sports care are already more power than you can legally use on public roads.
And stomping the clutch to the floor, then ramming a shift lever forward is simply more fun.
They shift faster, but shifting in the blink of an eye isn’t the only thing that makes driving fun. A true manual transmission requires you to be more engaged with the car. Vs tapping a flappy paddle or letting the car do it all for you.
Well when your customer base is mostly geriatric...
I mean, the reality is that manual/standard transmissions are just fuel and effort inefficient at this point. There was a window where automatics were inefficient enough to make learning stick worth it but that is LONG gone. And CVTs, in apples for apples comparisons, kind of are the best of both worlds.
Still pretty shocked since I don't think anyone buys a ferrari or a lambo because they want a reasonable high quality car and nothing screams "I am compensating" like wrapping your hands around that shaft while you drive but... if the goal is performance?
The main reasons you wanted a manual back in the day was price - because automatic transmissions were expensive - and fuel economy - because they were less efficient. (To a lesser extent reliability, because automatics were newer and they hadn't worked out the kinks yet.)
However, the price of automatics fell, and the dual-clutch gearboxes with 7-10 gears are even more efficient because they keep the car in the most efficient rev range. Same goes for CVTs. And the dual-clutches shift faster than you ever could, so they're better for sports cars, which is why F1 switched to them a long time ago.
So it makes sense that manuals are falling out of favor because they're objectively worse in all respects compared to the transmissions available today. However, subjectively they're a lot more fun which is why I have a manual transmission car I plan on keeping on the road well into the 2050s.
Fun and more control. I too am in the I bought a manual club. Twice my truck and my wife's car are both manual transmissions with a clutch (third pedal).
I guess some of the new dual clutch transmissions are considered manual 🤔
I got my license in the early 80's, and at that time the cheapest cars were older american beaters with utterly terrible 2 and 3-speed slushbox automatics. The alternative were Japanese cars like Honda Civics, small, reliable, manual transmission cars that got great gas mileage and were way more fun to drive. All these years later I'm still driving a manual, currently a 2021 Toyota Corolla. It's paid for, it gets around 35 mpg, and with regular maintenance it will run until the end of time.
I know American cars have improved a lot since the malaise era but you generally can't get them with manual transmissions, so I'll stick with the imports for now.
What Ferrari and Lamborghini does doesn't concern me but I'll keep buying cars with manual transmission for as long I can get one. I wouldn't buy a new car anyway so that alone gives me atleast 10 extra years. I still refuse to buy smartphones without a headphone jack either. Why? Mostly because of a principle.
What is the principle for manual cars?
They prefer fondling long shafts.
Same
I don't mind driving a manual. Every car I've owned has had a manual transmission so automatic would be a solution to a problem that I don't have. I like driving and I don't want the car to do the driving for me.
Yeah. You can't buy a ford or chevy pickup in the united states with a manual transmission anymore.
I know they're not supercars, or anything like that.
Big trucking companies are all going to automatic transmissions in their trucks as well.
I'm a school bus driver - buses with manual transmissions are long gone. The drug use and child molestation filters weed out enough potential drivers as it is.
Honestly DCTs make up for it, especially when your customer base is mostly people who don't know how to drive anyway.
Using a manual is easy, but using it to go fast can actually be pretty hard. You have to time everything right, compensate for a bunch of conditions, coax the shifter because its using synchros, feather the clutch accordingly, heel-toe downshift correctly, etc. It's extremely rewarding and useful if you actually want to have complete control over your car, but I doubt your average rich guy is gonna want to put that much effort into driving.
Manual shifting a modern Lambo would just be such a chore with how fast the RPM changes too (plus the loss of power from clutch would be even more noticeable). Current high end manuals just choose to stay with 6 gears so the gap stays comfortable, but you obviously lose some efficiency.
DCTs will do that all for you, the only thing you lose is a mechanical shifter (which if you're into manuals you very much miss lol) and the ability to do some clutch tricks (ie loss of some mechanical controls because its automatic).
Now putting a regular old torque converting automatic transmission into a sports car is a waste (and has many examples of such). They are very slow because they aren't deigned to rapidly change gears like you can in a manual. Even a CVT would be better from a practicality standpoint.
Formula 1 switched to semi-automatic in the 1980s. The technology has only improved over the last 40 years. If fast is what you want, driving a manual is insanity.
I made the mistake of buying an automatic once and i still regret it to this day because I'm still stuck with it.
Manuals only for me since then
I don't give a shit that autos are faster, i don't give a shit if they're more efficient. Manuals are simply more satisfying and enjoyable—and that's what driving is about.
Is that what driving is about? For me driving is about that I don't live in the supermarket and I need the shit they have in there.
No, driving is about keeping the Saudi wealth faucet working.
Different people enjoy cars different ways. For many it’s just a tool to get from point A to point B. These are the majority, and tend to be a crowd who is now trending towards EVs and Self Driving Vehicles.
For others, driving is about the experience of how the car meets the road and is much less about the destination. I just planned a 10 hour drive with a group of my car friends with no destination, we’re just doing it to get out on some fun roads with our cars. These type of people love our manual transmissions, ICE cars and the experience of driving and see the car as less of a tool and more of a hobby and something to bring groups together.
Exactly. That's why I didn't define what driving is in general, but for me. And according to statistics, most people. Petrolheads and hobbyists are not a big enough market segment to make decisions on, apparently even for Ferrari and Lamborghini.
I am also 100% on the EV hype, 3.5 years and counting. Super uncomplicated, silent and zoomy.
I bought a automatic bmw for the first time and was like: wow this is great. Being in traffic is way more relaxing and so on. I thought to myself: wow my last car was the last manual car i ever owned. Now i went back to manual and i couldn't be happier. A lot of people tell me that aktually automatic is so much faster and you can't shift as fast and so on. Yeah. I know. But i'm not racing anyone. I just drive on the weekends with a car that i lke.
Because nobody wants them. Or rather not enough people want them. Hell, kids these days don't even want to get their drivers licenses. For them Uber is good enough.
It's not that I like manuals, it's that I hate automatics randomly shifting and accelerating/slowing down randomly because of it.
It might not be as big an issue in bigger engines cars though, not driven anything bigger than a 1L engine in over a decade.
Looking forward to a direct drive electric car (with customisable acceleration profiles - even better!)
High-end has all been sequential for like a decade
Most super-cars are not a sequential. A sequential is usually the type of transmission you find in motorcycles. Most flappy paddle transmissions found in sports cars are either a dual clutch automatic or an automated manual.
I know autos are faster these days but manuals are so much more fun and always will be. It really sucks that they're going away :(
They're all fun and games until you're in stop go traffic. I agree though I miss driving a manual. Also they were easier to work on and tended to be cheaper to fix. That might not be the case anymore considering you're pretty much guaranteed to to have to special order parts.
I didn't know what a dual clutch transmission was and found this excellent video while searching. Figured I would share it here. Pretty awesome! You get the direct gearing benifits of a manual with the shifting ease and speed of an automatic.
So you need to download a pdf?
Ok, so they're performance focused. Who is making cars that are built for the most engaging driving experience? Are those "drive a slow car fast" type cars all already built?
Mazda.
Zoom Zoom
Porsche continues to sell manuals, but alas did do away with it on the upcoming Carrera 992.2 and gts. They have a 40% overall manual sales per this: https://www.motor1.com/news/705017/manual-transmission-sales-2023/
Bmw and others do have high individual model manual take rates (bmw m2/ct5 blackwing e.g. at 60/50% respectively.)
But they'll always be the less performance option, though more "engagement".
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